Crypto Currency Thread
Discussion
James_B said:
How will you handle the huge transaction costs on such tiny payments?
The tx fees are an aspect of the current bitcoin implementation, there are other chains with much lower tx fees and some non period of work ones capable of doing it without any tx fee.Whether they are actually a good idea is another discussion entirely!
wombleh said:
The tx fees are an aspect of the current bitcoin implementation, there are other chains with much lower tx fees and some non period of work ones capable of doing it without any tx fee.
Whether they are actually a good idea is another discussion entirely!
High tx fees relative to fiat are fine if Bitcoin has high value relative to fiat. What evolves are second layer solutions that settle to the main chain. Lightning Network is one such. Fees on it are negligible, easily small enough to manage streaming micro payments.Whether they are actually a good idea is another discussion entirely!
Behemoth said:
98elise said:
What if you forget the key?
You're screwed & it's lost, as hapless Newport laptop boy found out to his cost. https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-a...People get paid in local currency, and pay taxes in local currency, and can spend their currency everywhere. In the main they don't have much left when they get their next pay cheque so there is zero benefit in crypto.
Of those that do have some wealth saved, very few are going to to be happy storing it in a medium that can be lost, just so the government can't see it.
98elise said:
Do you think that will appeal to the masses?
People get paid in local currency, and pay taxes in local currency, and can spend their currency everywhere. In the main they don't have much left when they get their next pay cheque so there is zero benefit in crypto.
Of those that do have some wealth saved, very few are going to to be happy storing it in a medium that can be lost, just so the government can't see it.
Hiding it from the government isn't really the point. Taxes are still payable & criminals are daft to use something that is so well recorded. There is a very high risk of them getting caught: https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/legal/dark-w...People get paid in local currency, and pay taxes in local currency, and can spend their currency everywhere. In the main they don't have much left when they get their next pay cheque so there is zero benefit in crypto.
Of those that do have some wealth saved, very few are going to to be happy storing it in a medium that can be lost, just so the government can't see it.
98elise said:
Do you think that will appeal to the masses?
People get paid in local currency, and pay taxes in local currency, and can spend their currency everywhere. In the main they don't have much left when they get their next pay cheque so there is zero benefit in crypto.
Of those that do have some wealth saved, very few are going to to be happy storing it in a medium that can be lost, just so the government can't see it.
You can’t lose cash?People get paid in local currency, and pay taxes in local currency, and can spend their currency everywhere. In the main they don't have much left when they get their next pay cheque so there is zero benefit in crypto.
Of those that do have some wealth saved, very few are going to to be happy storing it in a medium that can be lost, just so the government can't see it.
There are some fundamental flaws with the system they're proposing, not from a technological point of view, but from a human point of view.
With currency, it sits in the bank, you can pay for things with your debit/credit card. If you lose this/forget your pin, you call CS and a friendly person helps you out. With crypto, it's all stored in a wallet. You are 100% responsible for this wallet. So if you lose your hardware wallet, or lose your private keys, you've lost all your money. And this hardware wallet, you need to keep it close by, so you can spend your money, but also safe, so it doesn't get lost. What if you're burgled? Or there's a house fire? With traditional currency in the bank, not a problem, with crypto, big problem. This is why, in its current state, it won't appeal to the masses.
Its high levels of security, actually work against it.
With currency, it sits in the bank, you can pay for things with your debit/credit card. If you lose this/forget your pin, you call CS and a friendly person helps you out. With crypto, it's all stored in a wallet. You are 100% responsible for this wallet. So if you lose your hardware wallet, or lose your private keys, you've lost all your money. And this hardware wallet, you need to keep it close by, so you can spend your money, but also safe, so it doesn't get lost. What if you're burgled? Or there's a house fire? With traditional currency in the bank, not a problem, with crypto, big problem. This is why, in its current state, it won't appeal to the masses.
Its high levels of security, actually work against it.
skinnyman said:
There are some fundamental flaws with the system they're proposing, not from a technological point of view, but from a human point of view.
With currency, it sits in the bank, you can pay for things with your debit/credit card. If you lose this/forget your pin, you call CS and a friendly person helps you out. With crypto, it's all stored in a wallet. You are 100% responsible for this wallet. So if you lose your hardware wallet, or lose your private keys, you've lost all your money. And this hardware wallet, you need to keep it close by, so you can spend your money, but also safe, so it doesn't get lost. What if you're burgled? Or there's a house fire? With traditional currency in the bank, not a problem, with crypto, big problem. This is why, in its current state, it won't appeal to the masses.
Its high levels of security, actually work against it.
You can have as many wallets as you like. You can fund a mobile wallet with loose change for day to day stuff. Any private keys to wallets with a lot of wealth can be stored much more securely. There are lots of ways to do this, including having multiple signatures on it.With currency, it sits in the bank, you can pay for things with your debit/credit card. If you lose this/forget your pin, you call CS and a friendly person helps you out. With crypto, it's all stored in a wallet. You are 100% responsible for this wallet. So if you lose your hardware wallet, or lose your private keys, you've lost all your money. And this hardware wallet, you need to keep it close by, so you can spend your money, but also safe, so it doesn't get lost. What if you're burgled? Or there's a house fire? With traditional currency in the bank, not a problem, with crypto, big problem. This is why, in its current state, it won't appeal to the masses.
Its high levels of security, actually work against it.
Meantime, day to day cash purchases won't be operating on the main Bitcoin protocol but on easier layers above that settle to it. That's what Lightning Network is & the apps being developed for it have great interfaces & user experiences. The latest I saw this week even had an invoice paid instantaneously just by text messages.
dimots said:
98elise said:
Do you think that will appeal to the masses?
People get paid in local currency, and pay taxes in local currency, and can spend their currency everywhere. In the main they don't have much left when they get their next pay cheque so there is zero benefit in crypto.
Of those that do have some wealth saved, very few are going to to be happy storing it in a medium that can be lost, just so the government can't see it.
You can’t lose cash?People get paid in local currency, and pay taxes in local currency, and can spend their currency everywhere. In the main they don't have much left when they get their next pay cheque so there is zero benefit in crypto.
Of those that do have some wealth saved, very few are going to to be happy storing it in a medium that can be lost, just so the government can't see it.
My wealth is in normal banks, or S&S, or property all of which are hard to lose. Wealth in crypto can be lost on a password.
If you work in IT you will know just how bad people are at either creating secure passwords, and remembering passwords.In a typical small company of a few hundred employees there will be multiple people forgetting their password every day..
98elise said:
Most people don't keep their savings in cash. Personally I have £5 in cash in my wallet, and I don't remember the last time I went to a cashpoint. Contactless has pretty much done away with the need for cash.
My wealth is in normal banks, or S&S, or property all of which are hard to lose. Wealth in crypto can be lost on a password.
If you work in IT you will know just how bad people are at either creating secure passwords, and remembering passwords.In a typical small company of a few hundred employees there will be multiple people forgetting their password every day..
Bitcoin is digital & can operate contactless.My wealth is in normal banks, or S&S, or property all of which are hard to lose. Wealth in crypto can be lost on a password.
If you work in IT you will know just how bad people are at either creating secure passwords, and remembering passwords.In a typical small company of a few hundred employees there will be multiple people forgetting their password every day..
Private keys are created for you. Personal responsibility for wealth is no bad thing imo, but for those that are uncomfortable, there are already bank-like entities where you can store this stuff. They will develop further. It's all still evolving, so a little pointless comparing it to what you do now unless you're able to look far ahead.
Bank-like entities sounds a bit like an exchange... which often is highlighted as not being a good idea.
How much is your Bitcoin insured for if:
It gets hacked (either someone cracks bitcoin/ through an exchange)
You lose the key - stolen, a fire at your house, etc
It's bizarre. Saying something is not good because it only covers 85k, when the other option covers absolutely nothing.
dimots said:
Condi said:
A banks primary function is to safely store money, something they do very well.
Only because they don’t ‘actually’ store the money and even then your account balance is only insured up to £85000 in the event of catastrophic failure.It gets hacked (either someone cracks bitcoin/ through an exchange)
You lose the key - stolen, a fire at your house, etc
It's bizarre. Saying something is not good because it only covers 85k, when the other option covers absolutely nothing.
NRS said:
Bank-like entities sounds a bit like an exchange... which often is highlighted as not being a good idea.
Not until they are a lot better. You are making a legitimate comment about how surrounding infrastructure to Bitcoin stands today, but fail to consider that infrastructure has already improved and will continue improving into the future. Similar has happened to all major technical innovation, from the telephone to radio & tv, the internet, aeroplanes, the motor car.. I could continue ad infinitum.
coyft said:
Interesting article on crypto by the Bank of International Settlements.
https://www.bis.org/publ/arpdf/ar2018e5.pdf
That was circulated at work by the FX desk today, with the comment “if you still want to go long crypto after reading this then I don’t know what to say.”https://www.bis.org/publ/arpdf/ar2018e5.pdf
Hmm Central Banks suggest that their system is more efficient than bitcoin. Quelle surprise!
The article begins quite well, in fact it begins a lot like ‘The Bitcoin Standard’ by Saifedean Ammous which I think they have cribbed a lot of their info from. The conclusion they reach however is based on the assumption that bitcoin today is how bitcoin tomorrow will work. A bit like reviewing the potential for 13th century groats to settle transactions online in 2018! They are clearly wary of the potential for disruption...fair enough...but dressing that in terms that attempt to discredit bitcoin without solid understanding and research makes them look disingenuous.
The article begins quite well, in fact it begins a lot like ‘The Bitcoin Standard’ by Saifedean Ammous which I think they have cribbed a lot of their info from. The conclusion they reach however is based on the assumption that bitcoin today is how bitcoin tomorrow will work. A bit like reviewing the potential for 13th century groats to settle transactions online in 2018! They are clearly wary of the potential for disruption...fair enough...but dressing that in terms that attempt to discredit bitcoin without solid understanding and research makes them look disingenuous.
dimots said:
Hmm Central Banks suggest that their system is more efficient than bitcoin. Quelle surprise!
The article begins quite well, in fact it begins a lot like ‘The Bitcoin Standard’ by Saifedean Ammous which I think they have cribbed a lot of their info from. The conclusion they reach however is based on the assumption that bitcoin today is how bitcoin tomorrow will work. A bit like reviewing the potential for 13th century groats to settle transactions online in 2018! They are clearly wary of the potential for disruption...fair enough...but dressing that in terms that attempt to discredit bitcoin without solid understanding and research makes them look disingenuous.
Ok, so what does the bitcoin of tomorrow look like, and how do you know? The article begins quite well, in fact it begins a lot like ‘The Bitcoin Standard’ by Saifedean Ammous which I think they have cribbed a lot of their info from. The conclusion they reach however is based on the assumption that bitcoin today is how bitcoin tomorrow will work. A bit like reviewing the potential for 13th century groats to settle transactions online in 2018! They are clearly wary of the potential for disruption...fair enough...but dressing that in terms that attempt to discredit bitcoin without solid understanding and research makes them look disingenuous.
Also, if the bitcoin of today is, as you admit, equivalent to a 13th century groat, why are you investing in something you accept is less good than what we have at the moment?
Condi said:
dimots said:
Hmm Central Banks suggest that their system is more efficient than bitcoin. Quelle surprise!
The article begins quite well, in fact it begins a lot like ‘The Bitcoin Standard’ by Saifedean Ammous which I think they have cribbed a lot of their info from. The conclusion they reach however is based on the assumption that bitcoin today is how bitcoin tomorrow will work. A bit like reviewing the potential for 13th century groats to settle transactions online in 2018! They are clearly wary of the potential for disruption...fair enough...but dressing that in terms that attempt to discredit bitcoin without solid understanding and research makes them look disingenuous.
Ok, so what does the bitcoin of tomorrow look like, and how do you know? The article begins quite well, in fact it begins a lot like ‘The Bitcoin Standard’ by Saifedean Ammous which I think they have cribbed a lot of their info from. The conclusion they reach however is based on the assumption that bitcoin today is how bitcoin tomorrow will work. A bit like reviewing the potential for 13th century groats to settle transactions online in 2018! They are clearly wary of the potential for disruption...fair enough...but dressing that in terms that attempt to discredit bitcoin without solid understanding and research makes them look disingenuous.
Also, if the bitcoin of today is, as you admit, equivalent to a 13th century groat, why are you investing in something you accept is less good than what we have at the moment?
Condi said:
Ok, so what does the bitcoin of tomorrow look like, and how do you know?
Also, if the bitcoin of today is, as you admit, equivalent to a 13th century groat, why are you investing in something you accept is less good than what we have at the moment?
Well, I don't know...but I can see that bitcoin is working, that it is a solid platform for innovation and that it remains neutral in a world where the money market is politicised. I can see a bright future for bitcoin in many ways...I can also imagine a future without banks. In fact I find it harder to imagine a future with them! More consumers are choosing non-bank options for managing money - Paypal, Skrill, Neteller, Apple Pay, Google Pay, TransferWise, etc... These kinds of companies expect the banks to work with them but there's a high chance the banks are going to get f**ked up by hackers in the near future and then they'll lose even more trust than they did in 2009. I think it will be a process of erosion with the banks...they'll end up haemhorraging so much money that they won't be able to cover it up any longer and then....opportunities for bitcoin!Also, if the bitcoin of today is, as you admit, equivalent to a 13th century groat, why are you investing in something you accept is less good than what we have at the moment?
Groats anology was crap let us not dwell on that too long
James_B said:
When bitcoin starts to act like a currency, and people want fifty year loans in it, and others want to hedge the interest rate risk for fifty years, who do you think they will want on the other side of their deals?
Chase Manhattan Bank, or Spazzokid54#§ ?
what if you wanted to avoid irate risk Crypto may do that in the future. We don't know but it "feels" like geni out of the bottle time. I.dont see it replacing fiat but I see it offering another optionChase Manhattan Bank, or Spazzokid54#§ ?
James_B said:
When bitcoin starts to act like a currency, and people want fifty year loans in it, and others want to hedge the interest rate risk for fifty years, who do you think they will want on the other side of their deals?
Chase Manhattan Bank, or Spazzokid54#§ ?
Exactly this, although some famous names will certainly disappear (remember Lehman?) and there will surely be new banks to challenge & I'd expect them to pay for some branding advice rather than be called Spazzokid54.Chase Manhattan Bank, or Spazzokid54#§ ?
Meantime, that report from BIS reads like a report commissioned by turkeys concerned about xmas traditions.
Edited by Behemoth on Wednesday 20th June 08:09
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