Crypto Currency Thread

[Lemming Train]

coyft said:

Lemming Train said:

coyft said:

What’s to stop all central banks in unison producing enough new money to pay off world debt? They could issue this new money at 0% interest, effectively wiping out government global debt.

Why would they want to do that? The last thing they want is to get rid of debt as their entire ponzi scheme would fall apart.

It would hardly fall apart, it would just reset. Money is a completely man made invention, it’s limitless and costs nothing to produce. As a means of exchange it’s a great invention.

Of course it would. If you "reset" it they would just do the exact same thing again. Without wishing to sound patronising may I suggest you have a read up on how the world financial system functions.

[DonkeyApple]

This is a book that everyone should read as just a simple, easy to read, starter to gain a little bit of background.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Power-Gold-Peter-L-Bernst...

[Trolleys Thank You]

Condi said:

Who is ignorant?

The people on this thread who are most sceptical of Bitcoin are those who work within financial services, and know not just how banks work, but how the regulation and international rules which the banks operate within work as well. Those who are most supportive of Bitcoin don't understand half of what the banks really do, especially around protecting your money and preventing fraud or loss.

That's quite a statement. I work for a Bank in the areas you mentioned. Myself and several other colleagues are strong believers in Bitcoin.

Some Gump said:

no bank has charged me a fee for normal savings / current / transaction/ credit card my whole life. That's over 30 years of banking (i didn't have an account in my early years). Since this historical length is longer than the lifespan of crypto, your argument is irrelevent. "Free" banking predates crypto.

Well as long as the middle class of one of the wealthiest, freest nations on earth have these services, the argument is irrelevent...?

Not quite. Unfortunately there are billions on this planet locked out of anything resembling the system we 'enjoy' in the UK.

[Lemming Train]

coyft said:

Lemming Train said:

coyft said:

Lemming Train said:

coyft said:

What’s to stop all central banks in unison producing enough new money to pay off world debt? They could issue this new money at 0% interest, effectively wiping out government global debt.

Why would they want to do that? The last thing they want is to get rid of debt as their entire ponzi scheme would fall apart.

It would hardly fall apart, it would just reset. Money is a completely man made invention, it’s limitless and costs nothing to produce. As a means of exchange it’s a great invention.

Of course it would. If you "reset" it they would just do the exact same thing again. Without wishing to sound patronising may I suggest you have a read up on how the world financial system functions.

Doing the exact same thing, is the opposite of falling apart.

Let’s have some of your mastery of financial knowledge as to why it wouldn’t be possible or desirable.

The monetary system falls apart if you remove the debt because that's what it's built on. To remove the debt/cancel it would only work if the entire monetary system was reinvented using a different non-debt based model. And that is never going to happen because it would make every bank owner a very sad panda and those people unsurprisingly happen to have a lot of influence with people in government. This is why governments and banks throughout the world are crapping their pants at the thought of crypto-currency gaining traction because if they can't figure out a way to regulate it and somehow make it debt based their ponzi scheme grinds to a halt.

[dimots]

I posted it in the other bitcoin thread so I'm sharing it here too.

http://time.com/5486673/bitcoin-venezuela-authorit...

[Lemming Train]

dimots said:

I posted it in the other bitcoin thread so I'm sharing it here too.

http://time.com/5486673/bitcoin-venezuela-authorit...

Clearly written by a Bitcoin shill. Behemoth has been quiet lately. Too busy writing articles for Time?

Who are these "Craigslist-style exchanges" then and what are their fees? No-one in Venezuela is going to run such an operation without obscene fees due to the risk of instant death the second that Maduro finds out about it.

[DonkeyApple]

‘Today, Venezuelans are adopting and experimenting with Bitcoin to evade hyperinflation and strict financial controls’

Not worked at all then. There is a very good reason why the paper USD is the back currency of such states.

Peg a crypto to the USD. Job done. Pegs are going to be the big stabiliser in the crypto world.

[bloomen]

DonkeyApple said:

‘Today, Venezuelans are adopting and experimenting with Bitcoin to evade hyperinflation and strict financial controls’

Not worked at all then. There is a very good reason why the paper USD is the back currency of such states.

Peg a crypto to the USD. Job done. Pegs are going to be the big stabiliser in the crypto world.

A pegged crypto requires someone or something to maintain the peg which means a central authority which means a one stop shop for shutdowns, seizures, blockages and dependence on conventional banking so it would be no better or worse than normal dollars.

It would be Paypal 2.0 without the option for good old cash.

The USD is obviously a better option in places like Venezuela but it's the accessing, storing and sending bit that's the hard part.

[Harris_I]

DonkeyApple said:

‘Today, Venezuelans are adopting and experimenting with Bitcoin to evade hyperinflation and strict financial controls’

Not worked at all then. There is a very good reason why the paper USD is the back currency of such states.

Peg a crypto to the USD. Job done. Pegs are going to be the big stabiliser in the crypto world.

I acknowledge some excellent points in your earlier response to me, especially regarding consumer debt. On the point about democracy, I tend to believe we don't really live in a true democracy today but I feel I will struggle to convince others as it is as much an emotional argument as rational one, so I might pass on trying to argue that one. I have been a banker for 25 years and worked with a number of politicians in recent years, almost none of whom I would consider to be particularly bright or able, and certainly not of the quality that could understand radical technological or economic change on a profound level. Instead I see individuals who enjoy the circus of Westminster, and work on a short cycle to protect their jobs. They promise to turn our houses into ATM machines and so we vote them in. It's easy to blame the bankers, but actually the public, the mediocre politicians they vote in, and the bankers who finance them are all collectively to blame.

Anyway, on this point about the USD peg, I couldn't disagree more. As I said earlier the USD devalued 96% in real terms in the last century. Recent QE makes matters worse. The rise of nativism and appalling inequality stemming from devaluation is evidence to me of the beginning of the decline of US global dominance. A USD peg will work in the short term, but ultimately it kicks the can further down the road. A more viable long term solution lies elsewhere.

[Mousem40]

Lemming Train said:

coyft said:

Lemming Train said:

coyft said:

Lemming Train said:

coyft said:

What’s to stop all central banks in unison producing enough new money to pay off world debt? They could issue this new money at 0% interest, effectively wiping out government global debt.

Why would they want to do that? The last thing they want is to get rid of debt as their entire ponzi scheme would fall apart.

It would hardly fall apart, it would just reset. Money is a completely man made invention, it’s limitless and costs nothing to produce. As a means of exchange it’s a great invention.

Of course it would. If you "reset" it they would just do the exact same thing again. Without wishing to sound patronising may I suggest you have a read up on how the world financial system functions.

Doing the exact same thing, is the opposite of falling apart.

Let’s have some of your mastery of financial knowledge as to why it wouldn’t be possible or desirable.

The monetary system falls apart if you remove the debt because that's what it's built on. To remove the debt/cancel it would only work if the entire monetary system was reinvented using a different non-debt based model. And that is never going to happen because it would make every bank owner a very sad panda and those people unsurprisingly happen to have a lot of influence with people in government. This is why governments and banks throughout the world are crapping their pants at the thought of crypto-currency gaining traction because if they can't figure out a way to regulate it and somehow make it debt based their ponzi scheme grinds to a halt.

Let me give a slightly easier to understand answer.

Governments via their central banks issue IOU's called Bonds. They sell these bonds to whoever wants them. People want to buy these pieces of paper IOUs because the government promises to pay them lets say 5% interest a year. So Jo Shmo gives the government £100 and gets £5 every year in return for lets say 10 years, after which they get their £100 back. The government is in debt to the tune of £100 to Jo and owes him £5 a year for 10 years on top.

This is most of the debt in the world that you speak of. The debt/bond money is spent on trains, roads, hospitals, wars, corrupt government pockets etc. If we didn't have this debt then governments would not have enough money to pay for things to get done (and taxes are not nearly enough)

So, if as you suggest, the governments told their central banks to just ask Mr Printing Press to just print trillions of £ and pay back all these bonds holders back, then what would suddenly happen is trillions of £ would suddenly sit in people's pockets. These people would have a field day spending a lot of this money they had in 'savings' at the central bank. Shops won't have enough supply to meet all this demand, so they ask for more supply. Suppliers see demand has shot up and increase prices, which are then passed on to the consumer. On and on, until hyperinflation kicks in and the money in your pocket at midday will be worth 10% less come 5pm. Money becomes worthless (see Germany, Venezuela etc etc for examples)


So instead of curing the world's problems, it makes the financial system collapse then we all start using Bitcoin Cash and saving babies! :P

[MWM3]

DonkeyApple said:

‘Today, Venezuelans are adopting and experimenting with Bitcoin to evade hyperinflation and strict financial controls’

Not worked at all then. There is a very good reason why the paper USD is the back currency of such states.

Peg a crypto to the USD. Job done. Pegs are going to be the big stabiliser in the crypto world.

Isn't Bitcoin (or one of the other stcoins) supposed to already pegged to the USD by Tether?

hmmm Tether ... that sure does seem legit and not scammy in anyway, whatsoever.

[DonkeyApple]

Harris_I said:

I acknowledge some excellent points in your earlier response to me, especially regarding consumer debt. On the point about democracy, I tend to believe we don't really live in a true democracy today but I feel I will struggle to convince others as it is as much an emotional argument as rational one, so I might pass on trying to argue that one. I have been a banker for 25 years and worked with a number of politicians in recent years, almost none of whom I would consider to be particularly bright or able, and certainly not of the quality that could understand radical technological or economic change on a profound level. Instead I see individuals who enjoy the circus of Westminster, and work on a short cycle to protect their jobs. They promise to turn our houses into ATM machines and so we vote them in. It's easy to blame the bankers, but actually the public, the mediocre politicians they vote in, and the bankers who finance them are all collectively to blame.

Anyway, on this point about the USD peg, I couldn't disagree more. As I said earlier the USD devalued 96% in real terms in the last century. Recent QE makes matters worse. The rise of nativism and appalling inequality stemming from devaluation is evidence to me of the beginning of the decline of US global dominance. A USD peg will work in the short term, but ultimately it kicks the can further down the road. A more viable long term solution lies elsewhere.

Much of the problems could simply be removed by putting back in place regulation to restrict lending to sustainable levels. It would prevent asset bubbles from being too big to fail and remove power from the State. An excessive wealth divide is always bad but it is always created by releasing money to the poorer than by allowing the wealthy to accumulate it. The people just need to be told that they can’t have a new TV or car every month.

Re pegging to produce a viable black market currency for third and fourth world economies. I’m sure it’s something that might emanate from China as a long term play to wrestle global authority from the US which gains much from the USD being the global black currency.

[Harris_I]

DonkeyApple said:

Much of the problems could simply be removed by putting back in place regulation to restrict lending to sustainable levels. It would prevent asset bubbles from being too big to fail and remove power from the State. An excessive wealth divide is always bad but it is always created by releasing money to the poorer than by allowing the wealthy to accumulate it. The people just need to be told that they can’t have a new TV or car every month.

Re pegging to produce a viable black market currency for third and fourth world economies. I’m sure it’s something that might emanate from China as a long term play to wrestle global authority from the US which gains much from the USD being the global black currency.

It's a powerful argument. Restricting consumer debt could sustain the global economy for another generation. I still think it doesn't address the more fundamental reasons for a divergence between the real and financial economies. The nature of money itself remains the central problem and hence why I have become a convert to the idea of a decentralised currency. But it's too radical, even for a very clever advocate of reform like Adair Turner, so most likely in the short term we will see reforms as you suggest.

That said, I've been thinking for a while now that a Crypto v.2 might emanate from a leftfield play by, say, China (or maybe even a large economy experiencing some form of political or other distress like Iran or Pakistan).

Right now is an incredibly fascinating period of economic history.

[selmahoose]

coyft said:

EddieSteadyGo said:

Lemming Train said:

Caterham.lover said:

On what do you base that claim - are you an 'expert'?

Welcome back, James_B !

Nope. It's Sidicks, I think you will find. And Groak called it first.

Yup, that’s Sidicks down to a tee.

LOL!! He's gone into denial about it on the "Lendy" thread.

Usually he abandons the alter egos when they're outed but I think he's going to try and brazen this one out.

It's kinda creepy.

[Badda]

selmahoose said:

coyft said:

EddieSteadyGo said:

Lemming Train said:

Caterham.lover said:

On what do you base that claim - are you an 'expert'?

Welcome back, James_B !

Nope. It's Sidicks, I think you will find. And Groak called it first.

Yup, that’s Sidicks down to a tee.

LOL!! He's gone into denial about it on the "Lendy" thread.

Usually he abandons the alter egos when they're outed but I think he's going to try and brazen this one out.

It's kinda creepy.

You're right Groak, it is obviously sidicks,

[selmahoose]

It's like a baldy man wearing a cheap black plastic wig...

[Caterham.lover]

selmahoose said:

LOL!! He's gone into denial about it on the "Lendy" thread.

Usually he abandons the alter egos when they're outed but I think he's going to try and brazen this one out.

It's kinda creepy.

Is that similar to how you resort to insults when your usual lies and ignorance are highlighted by those who actually know what they are talking about, before you runaway to make yet another name change, so that you can return to spout the same lies and demonstrate the same lack of understanding at a later date?

That sort of creepy? Or the sort of creepy where you stalk someone on various Finance threads, when you have absolutely nothing to add?

Edited by Caterham.lover on Monday 31st December 14:40

[Badda]

You've been banned on here for being like this, just ps off with your pathetic bickering or I'll report you. It's honestly like my two little kids.

[selmahoose]

@badda. Did The Welcher ever pay you??

[selmahoose]

Yes, a classic vintage outburst