Cryptocurrency - where's the actual value?
Discussion
bloomen said:
fishseller said:
nice one You could've bought ETH for about 25p only a couple of years ago. Now it's hundreds. It's hard to figure out how much upside is left with the big projects and the rest is pure luck, as it was in my case pretty much.
bloomen said:
It took just under four years to get there with plenty of drama in between. I'm not so sure people piling in now will make giant returns, but it totally depends on what you gambled on.
I disagree. With estimates in the 7 figures that's approx 1000x. Admittedly you have to pump more in but that's pretty good potential returns.WitnessProtection said:
Why should perception of future earnings be more concrete than the perception of immutability of a cryptographically derived currency?
Because there's a difference between owning £10,000 of shares in Tesco, where half the UK population does its shopping every week, and owning a £10,000 tulip bulb which some Dutchman said "could only go up in value". My apologies if this has been linked/posted previously, but Forbes published a decent essay on precisely this topic:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonbloomberg/2017/0...
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonbloomberg/2017/0...
Henrico said:
bloomen said:
It took just under four years to get there with plenty of drama in between. I'm not so sure people piling in now will make giant returns, but it totally depends on what you gambled on.
I disagree. With estimates in the 7 figures that's approx 1000x. Admittedly you have to pump more in but that's pretty good potential returns.James_B said:
egomeister said:
We're going round in circles here... what is the inherent value of GBP?
I could swear I'd written that above. You can use it to discharge debts in the U.K., so stopping you going to prison.I'll have a £30k tax bill to pay shortly, if I give HMRC £30k then that's it, the debt is discharged. They don't take bitcoins.
Or, to make it more explicit, how many bitcoins do I need to hold today to settle £30k in six months?
Actually, your post has made me reailse that there are two ways that taxation generates a value in a currency, the first being to give a baseline level of transactional use and the second as a means of not being locked up...
James_B said:
Swiss francs can be used to pay your Swiss taxes.
Again, this is one of the key points of a traditional currency, and one of the reasons they always have value.
I don't have any Swiss tax to settle... does that make it worthless then?Again, this is one of the key points of a traditional currency, and one of the reasons they always have value.
Actually looking into tax payments further, if you don't pay HMRC have the option of seizing money directly from your bank accounts. I would assume that is UK based only, but if you had a CHF currency account I can't see anything that would prevent them taking those. Likewise they have the power to seize items from you, so your wine collection or gold bullion could be used. Conceptually, it would appear that a GBP tax bill could be settled by other means of exchange after all...
egomeister said:
Oh what basis do you see million dollar bitcoin?
The increasingly limited supply, the upcoming financial crisis, the advantages over current fiat currencies, the incoming investment from the 1%, the increasing despondency people have with government, the trustless nature of bitcoin, the fact bitcoin is blockchain and none of the other currencies can ever replace itBehemoth said:
With BTC I can buy pretty much anything on Amazon via purse.io. Since I'm in the software business, loads of stuff is available from many retailers for direct BTC purchase this evening. Legitimate goods and services.
otoh, I have a few $ notes here and I'd find it absolutely impossible to buy anything with them without a lot of effort, even tomorrow in the daytime.
Do you actually use it to purchase much though? As far as I can see there are transaction fees in buying Bitcoin from an exchange, and small transaction fees for moving it around. So unless you're buying stuff in foreign currencies, where you'd again have transition fees, why would you use Bitcoin over your own national currency which is generally free to move about? Plus as the value of bitcoin is still rising doesn't that make whatever you buy effectively more expensive than using a more stable currency?otoh, I have a few $ notes here and I'd find it absolutely impossible to buy anything with them without a lot of effort, even tomorrow in the daytime.
Edited by Behemoth on Tuesday 12th September 19:32
RizzoTheRat said:
True, but if you buy on Amazon using Bitcoin do they offer a lower price to take in to account they're paying less for the transaction?
No, just as you can't get a discount for cash when you buy petrol at Asda, 1) because it would confuse consumers, 2) because fees for cash handling, card transactions or whatever are variable and not under your control.Businesses hide their costs to consumers in general because they'd be misunderstood.
Bitcoin would wither and die were it no being used, its designed into the topology of the system.
FredClogs said:
No, just as you can't get a discount for cash when you buy petrol at Asda, 1) because it would confuse consumers, 2) because fees for cash handling, card transactions or whatever are variable and not under your control.
Businesses hide their costs to consumers in general because they'd be misunderstood.
Bitcoin would wither and die were it no being used, its designed into the topology of the system.
Which is my point, surely it's effectively more expensive to buy most things with bitcoin?Businesses hide their costs to consumers in general because they'd be misunderstood.
Bitcoin would wither and die were it no being used, its designed into the topology of the system.
I'm just interested in how many people are buying it and holding it as a commodity that's increasing in value, compared to how many people are using it to buy goods and services. I guess the exchanges know how much is being bought and sold for other currencies, but the nature of it means it's impossible to track how much use it's getting as a currency.
RizzoTheRat said:
Which is my point, surely it's effectively more expensive to buy most things with bitcoin?
I'm just interested in how many people are buying it and holding it as a commodity that's increasing in value, compared to how many people are using it to buy goods and services. I guess the exchanges know how much is being bought and sold for other currencies, but the nature of it means it's impossible to track how much use it's getting as a currency.
For me the issue with spending BTC is that it is appreciating so fast that it is far far cheaper to use fiat. It certainly has all the attributes of a store of value rather than a day to day currency at the moment.I'm just interested in how many people are buying it and holding it as a commodity that's increasing in value, compared to how many people are using it to buy goods and services. I guess the exchanges know how much is being bought and sold for other currencies, but the nature of it means it's impossible to track how much use it's getting as a currency.
RizzoTheRat said:
FredClogs said:
No, just as you can't get a discount for cash when you buy petrol at Asda, 1) because it would confuse consumers, 2) because fees for cash handling, card transactions or whatever are variable and not under your control.
Businesses hide their costs to consumers in general because they'd be misunderstood.
Bitcoin would wither and die were it no being used, its designed into the topology of the system.
Which is my point, surely it's effectively more expensive to buy most things with bitcoin?Businesses hide their costs to consumers in general because they'd be misunderstood.
Bitcoin would wither and die were it no being used, its designed into the topology of the system.
I'm just interested in how many people are buying it and holding it as a commodity that's increasing in value, compared to how many people are using it to buy goods and services. I guess the exchanges know how much is being bought and sold for other currencies, but the nature of it means it's impossible to track how much use it's getting as a currency.
You're right people are speculating on it but that's no different to the vast currency and bond markets, the amount of cash that is invested on the basis of the value of cash is also huge not to mention gold or oil and other commodity investing... It's no different.
x5x3 said:
RizzoTheRat said:
Which is my point, surely it's effectively more expensive to buy most things with bitcoin?
I'm just interested in how many people are buying it and holding it as a commodity that's increasing in value, compared to how many people are using it to buy goods and services. I guess the exchanges know how much is being bought and sold for other currencies, but the nature of it means it's impossible to track how much use it's getting as a currency.
For me the issue with spending BTC is that it is appreciating so fast that it is far far cheaper to use fiat. It certainly has all the attributes of a store of value rather than a day to day currency at the moment.I'm just interested in how many people are buying it and holding it as a commodity that's increasing in value, compared to how many people are using it to buy goods and services. I guess the exchanges know how much is being bought and sold for other currencies, but the nature of it means it's impossible to track how much use it's getting as a currency.
Yes, of course, use as store of value is leagues ahead of transactional use. It's early days.
FredClogs said:
Not at all, the nature of it is that every transaction that occurs is tracker and recorded. Ok so there's no record of what items were bought and sold but that's just the same as cash, bit coin is far more traceable, its necessary for the way bit coin works.
Didn't realise that. If you make a payment from your wallet directly to someone else's wallet where is that history stored?Behemoth said:
A holiday in France bought today with sterling is more expensive than a holiday in France bought pre-Brexit with sterling because the pound has plummeted. So, how can it possibly be more expensive to buy something in Bitcoin if the value of Bitcoin is increasing? It would only be more expensive if its value falls.
Bitcoin is rising in value faster than the pound, so if you have £100 in the bank and £100 worth of bitcoins now, then next month you'll have say £100.01 and £105 worth of bitcoins. If you spend £100 this month you'd be £4.99 better off next month if you'd spent sterling than if you'd spent bitcoinsRizzoTheRat said:
Bitcoin is rising in value faster than the pound, so if you have £100 in the bank and £100 worth of bitcoins now, then next month you'll have say £100.01 and £105 worth of bitcoins. If you spend £100 this month you'd be £4.99 better off next month if you'd spent sterling than if you'd spent bitcoins
OK, go ahead and stick with the plummeting currency 
With your logic, you'd be hanging onto the Bolivar/Reichsmark etc regardless of the increasing price of goods & services around you.Gassing Station | Finance | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff