Timeless designs

Author
Discussion

alolympic

Original Poster:

700 posts

196 months

Sunday 22nd October 2017
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I like many different designs of watch but recently my eye is getting turned by a lot of older stuff, and some of the simpler designs that seem to have an effortless charm.
There is one I am considering in buying at the moment, would be interested in other people’s opinions.
Is it is just me, or is this actually quite lovely?

Hoofy

76,253 posts

281 months

Sunday 22nd October 2017
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I love it but it's definitely in the "old" or "vintage" category.

alolympic

Original Poster:

700 posts

196 months

Sunday 22nd October 2017
quotequote all
Hoofy said:
I love it but it's definitely in the "old" or "vintage" category.
It’s certainly Old, 1948 apparently. NOS, which is why there is very little patina.
Never owned a Zenith, they don’t seem to be popular these days but a great heritage as I understand it...


Edited by alolympic on Monday 23 October 00:17

Hoofy

76,253 posts

281 months

Monday 23rd October 2017
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Most go for the El Primero ones.

mikeveal

4,559 posts

249 months

Monday 23rd October 2017
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That's not a NOS, it's a redial.


Take a look at the registration of the markings in the small seconds portion of the dial. The mark at 45 seconds touches the side of the dial recess, whereas there's a considerable gap by the mark at 15 seconds.
There's no Zenith star affixed to the dial ( I think it should have one), the crown isn't signed and the case has been quite heavily polished. The movement appears in good condition though.

My personal estimate would be that it's worth about a third of the current asking price.


But yes, I like this style, I have a almost identical LACO (original dial though) on a grey leather strap that my wife bought me for £60. Its very wearable.


EDIT.
I'm both right and wrong.
http://forums.watchuseek.com/f27/zenith-sporto-449...
There's a black Sporto on the very first page of that thread with this exact dial design. I was wrong, it doesn't have the applied Zenith star.
I'm more convinced that the one you found is a redial though, look at the design of the 5 and 7 on the black Sporto. The subsecond dial cuts through both numbers. Not so on the redial.

Really hope that helps.


Edited by mikeveal on Monday 23 October 08:28

Snubs

1,166 posts

138 months

Monday 23rd October 2017
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I think it looks great, albeit Mike's detective work may have burst the bubble somewhat. If it has, how about one like this:

https://www.chrono24.co.uk/zenith/sporto--id709497...

I'd point out I've no idea whether that particular one is genuine or not and the country of origin (Latvia) doesn't exactly inspire confidence on that front. But to return to the original question of the aesthetic, I like the symmetry of all 12 numerals with this design, combined with a centre seconds hand, which I prefer to a small seconds hand these days.

mikeveal

4,559 posts

249 months

Monday 23rd October 2017
quotequote all
Snubs said:
I think it looks great, albeit Mike's detective work may have burst the bubble somewhat. If it has, how about one like this:

https://www.chrono24.co.uk/zenith/sporto--id709497...

I'd point out I've no idea whether that particular one is genuine or not and the country of origin (Latvia) doesn't exactly inspire confidence on that front. But to return to the original question of the aesthetic, I like the symmetry of all 12 numerals with this design, combined with a centre seconds hand, which I prefer to a small seconds hand these days.
The image resolution isn't good enough for me to tell whether that's an original dial or not. It is far more sensibly priced though :thumbsup:
Movement looks right too: http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?11&...

alolympic

Original Poster:

700 posts

196 months

Monday 23rd October 2017
quotequote all
mikeveal said:
That's not a NOS, it's a redial.


Take a look at the registration of the markings in the small seconds portion of the dial. The mark at 45 seconds touches the side of the dial recess, whereas there's a considerable gap by the mark at 15 seconds.
There's no Zenith star affixed to the dial ( I think it should have one), the crown isn't signed and the case has been quite heavily polished. The movement appears in good condition though.

My personal estimate would be that it's worth about a third of the current asking price.


But yes, I like this style, I have a almost identical LACO (original dial though) on a grey leather strap that my wife bought me for £60. Its very wearable.


EDIT.
I'm both right and wrong.
http://forums.watchuseek.com/f27/zenith-sporto-449...
There's a black Sporto on the very first page of that thread with this exact dial design. I was wrong, it doesn't have the applied Zenith star.
I'm more convinced that the one you found is a redial though, look at the design of the 5 and 7 on the black Sporto. The subsecond dial cuts through both numbers. Not so on the redial.

Really hope that helps.


Edited by mikeveal on Monday 23 October 08:28
Thank you so much!
I think you may have just saved me a costly mistake.
I am definitely not experienced enough to spot a good vintage buy. I only started to get into proper watches 10years ago with a Christopher Ward, and now have a vintage Omega Chronostop and Heuer recreation thing and a n unusual Driving watch branded ‘Sexima’. I think I need to be more cautious.
Thank you again, really appreciate your input!

mikeveal

4,559 posts

249 months

Monday 23rd October 2017
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You're very welcome.
The only way to learn is to make mistakes sadly. I've not been collecting much longer than you, I have twenty odd watches now.

My advice would be to limit yourself to what you can afford to throw away. I started with watches around the £100 - £150 mark.
Buying vintage you should always:
  • Do lots of research. Find other examples of the same watch, learn what it should look like.
  • Find sold examples or watch ebay auctions to see sale prices. Asking prices are irrelevant.
  • Tie movement condition, case and dial condition. For example a watch with some rust on the movement, should not have a pristine dial.
  • Look at other watches from the same seller, do they have a suspiciously large number of pristine watches from the 40's & 50's? Are all the cases over polished? Are there examples of frankenwatches.
  • Expect all the bridges and rotor in the movement to have aged similarly, they should all be the same colour & tone. An odd shiny bridge is a sure sign of a movement cobbled together from spares. Similarly rust on the steel parts.
  • Avoid certain watches, buying a Pie Pan Connie or a first or second gen Dynamic will 9/10 times get you a duffer.
  • Expect to service your vintage watch immediately and budget for it. Even if the seller says they've done it. I've had several like this, one was so soaked in oil that the balance spring was sticking to itself, others had never been serviced.
  • If you want an original condition watch, avoid India, the Ukraine, Argentina.
  • And most importantly, get on a decent forum, TZ or watchuseek and ask if you're unsure.

nikaiyo2

4,672 posts

194 months

Monday 23rd October 2017
quotequote all
I would echo what Mikeveal has said, (and agree 100% with his last post) at 1st glance it looks like a redial, but I am not so sure.

The sub dial divisions look lopsided but the more I look at the pictures, the more I think the photography might be making the sub dial look this way? Ask the seller, tell him you have concerns, see what response you get.

The lume on the numerals and hands looks “right” they look aged, but slightly different in texture as it should. If someone has gone to this level of detail to do this, would they then misalign the sub dial so badly?

I am also not sure that the case has been polished, looking at the pics in Mikeveals WF link the 40's watches all look plated, not stainless, (if it’s the eBay watch the case is not stamped Acier, I would expect a 40s watch to be stamped if it was) so the case can’t really be polished, if it is it would need to be re-plated.

If it is a redial it is a good one (assuming the subdial is ok) the Zenith logo looks spot on, as do the numerals.

I am going to get shot down for this, but I think for a watch like this a GOOD redial is not the end of the world. Its not a vintage sub where an original dial vs redial can be £ thousands.
I assume this is the watch for sale on eBay for £1000ish (I don’t say this in any kind of condescending way) if it is a redial what would it knock off the value £2/300? Does that matter a great deal for an everyday watch? Its certainly not one of the gopping indian redials that kick about.

Please don’t get me wrong, I am not trying to say Mikeveal is wrong, and certainly not trying to “call him out,” as he is more than likely correct. Its just the more I look at that watch, the more it looks like it might be ok. I would deffo join WF and ask in the Zenith forum, see what others think.

Edited by nikaiyo2 on Monday 23 October 22:16

mikeveal

4,559 posts

249 months

Tuesday 24th October 2017
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Good call on the case Nikayio.
Here's the black Sporto from the other thread:

You're right, the case is plated. My mistake - I compared the rounded edges on the outside of the lugs with the sharper inner edges and that led me to think it'd been polished. A plated case in that condition is very unusual - do you think it's been replated?

Take a gander at the way the subsecond dial intersects with the 5 and the 7 on the black watch. That's not replicated on the ebay watch.

[url]Here's|http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-NOS-Watch-ZENITH-SPORTO-Steel-Strap-Tag-1948-Stunning-/332421906999[\url] the watch on ebay. The centre seconds are definitely off.

But yes, the quality of the lume application and the aging of the lume did make me hesitate before saying redial. Have just noticed, I think I can see the plastic dust cover on the ebay watch too.

OP, I strongly advise you to post some pictures in the WatchUSeek vintage forum and ask for opinions. There are some very knowledgable guys there.
I still think this is a redial, but as Nikayio says, if it is, it's a fairly decent effort.

mikeveal

4,559 posts

249 months

Wednesday 25th October 2017
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I took the liberty:
http://forums.watchuseek.com/f11/opinions-sporto-p...

Worth a gander, the guy's there are like a pack of bloodhounds!

alolympic

Original Poster:

700 posts

196 months

Thursday 26th October 2017
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mikeveal said:
I took the liberty:
http://forums.watchuseek.com/f11/opinions-sporto-p...

Worth a gander, the guy's there are like a pack of bloodhounds!
Brilliant, thank you. I would have got around to it but this week has been crazy at work.
Makes for very interesting reading, I hadn’t spotted the anomalies with the sub dial.