Should You Save or Spend?
Discussion
Welshbeef said:
Do people save - or take out funeral insurance these days?
Coffin service flowers and the wake are not really that cheap £10k is he sort of £ I’ve heard
Flogging funeral insurance is a fantastic new enterprise. It’s highly lucrative because just like selling TV life insurance with an exciting free pen it is mostly bought by idiots who are easily scared and duped into buying a hugely marked up product while also thinking they are only going to live for another 5 years when all the statistics tell the vendor that they are going to live for another 20. 20 years of constant, monthly tapping of free money by direct debit. Happy days. It’s the classic death arbitrage model based on the basic principle that people always live far longer than they think they will. Coffin service flowers and the wake are not really that cheap £10k is he sort of £ I’ve heard
The other interesting aspect of the funeral industry is that outside of a few chains like the CoOp the industry is mostly independent, family businesses. It is an industry that is being hit by the same issue that petrol stations and corner shops are being hit with, which is that the next generation don’t want to take over the business and there are big vulture funds operating to profit from this. One in particular is buying up all the family funeral directors on the cheap, keeping the branding and usually the owner on as manager but building a chain which allows them to centralise costs while increasing prices. At the same time you are buying a business on a multiple of 3 but probably able to book the asset into your chain on a much higher multiple, instantly making a large gain.
Lots of people dying and lots of them have an excess of money and a shortage of brains so all these harvesting industries are having a field day from equity release, to life insurance and now funeral costs. Donkey sanctuaries must really be feeling the pressure in the face of such strong competition.
This thread seems to have conflated pension provision and saving. I have a very good pension through work that’s always been there, every month 6% of my pay has automatically disappeared into the magical pots. I don’t actively have to save. I have no real desire to save more as the existing provision is enough to support my current lifestyle once mortgage free.
I am very much a live for the moment type but recognise that is a luxury offered by incredibly safe employment and a generous pension. If I were working for a company that pays sod all into a pension or worked in a role where I could find myself out on my arse my attitude would be completely different. There’s also the age factor, as I get a bit older (32 now) I may well decide that retiring at 58 seems a bit too far off and that I’d like to bring that forward a little at which point I will start to put money to one side to expedite that.
I do agree that we should be teaching children about money management crucially pensions at school. The state pension is ok but there are millions of people who are going to be in for a nasty shock when they discover how little you do for £165/wk.
I am very much a live for the moment type but recognise that is a luxury offered by incredibly safe employment and a generous pension. If I were working for a company that pays sod all into a pension or worked in a role where I could find myself out on my arse my attitude would be completely different. There’s also the age factor, as I get a bit older (32 now) I may well decide that retiring at 58 seems a bit too far off and that I’d like to bring that forward a little at which point I will start to put money to one side to expedite that.
I do agree that we should be teaching children about money management crucially pensions at school. The state pension is ok but there are millions of people who are going to be in for a nasty shock when they discover how little you do for £165/wk.
DonkeyApple said:
Lots of people dying and lots of them have an excess of money and a shortage of brains so all these harvesting industries are having a field day from equity release, to life insurance and now funeral costs.
Absolutely right, cost is way out of proportion to the benefit. DonkeyApple said:
Donkey sanctuaries must really be feeling the pressure in the face of such strong competition.
That must be quite worrying for you. 
djc206 said:
This thread seems to have conflated pension provision and saving.
Because they are closely related and nowadays much the same thing. Decades ago, the state and/or your workplace sorted it out for you because the state thought people couldn't be relied on to sort it out for themselves. Now that people have the freedom to sort it out for themselves pretty much however they wish, many don't have the financial intelligence to follow through. Meantime they are preyed upon by marketers and lenders to further lessen their chances of acquiring that intelligence. Easy money.Behemoth said:
djc206 said:
This thread seems to have conflated pension provision and saving.
Because they are closely related and nowadays much the same thing. Decades ago, the state and/or your workplace sorted it out for you because the state thought people couldn't be relied on to sort it out for themselves. Now that people have the freedom to sort it out for themselves pretty much however they wish, many don't have the financial intelligence to follow through. Meantime they are preyed upon by marketers and lenders to further lessen their chances of acquiring that intelligence. Easy money.xeny said:
djc206 said:
True to an extent but now that we have legislation forcing employers to provide pensions again we’re back on the road to sanity.
I'd question the sanity of anyone planning to exist on the provision the legislation forces employers to provide.p1stonhead said:
xeny said:
djc206 said:
True to an extent but now that we have legislation forcing employers to provide pensions again we’re back on the road to sanity.
I'd question the sanity of anyone planning to exist on the provision the legislation forces employers to provide.If someone earning £30k+ (Aribitary number for approximate guidance purposes only, not an invitation for samples of one to step up
) doesn’t invest in their own future then tough titty, they can do what the pensioners of today who have failed to save enough to maintain their desired lifestyle and leap into the clutches of the equity release vampires, get a job saying ‘I used to be a plumber’ at B&Q or go into the specialist sex trade round the back of the local train station or docks servicing Uber drivers and traveling salesmen. xeny said:
djc206 said:
True to an extent but now that we have legislation forcing employers to provide pensions again we’re back on the road to sanity.
I'd question the sanity of anyone planning to exist on the provision the legislation forces employers to provide.
t maybe I should have plan for this inevitable moment.DonkeyApple said:
I can’t say I have a clue what the new workplace pension is supposed to deliver in retirement but I belive it logical to guess that the amount is aimed at the lowest income earners and that as grown ups the State expects higher income earners to have the whit to work out that they need to save more or suffer the consequences of their own deliberate stupidity. The State isn’t there to hold the hands of middle to high income earners but to protect the vulnerable majority.
If someone earning £30k+ (Aribitary number for approximate guidance purposes only, not an invitation for samples of one to step up) doesn’t invest in their own future then tough titty, they can do what the pensioners of today who have failed to save enough to maintain their desired lifestyle and leap into the clutches of the equity release vampires, get a job saying ‘I used to be a plumber’ at B&Q or go into the specialist sex trade round the back of the local train station or docks servicing Uber drivers and traveling salesmen.
Does Uber pay well enough for that?If someone earning £30k+ (Aribitary number for approximate guidance purposes only, not an invitation for samples of one to step up
) doesn’t invest in their own future then tough titty, they can do what the pensioners of today who have failed to save enough to maintain their desired lifestyle and leap into the clutches of the equity release vampires, get a job saying ‘I used to be a plumber’ at B&Q or go into the specialist sex trade round the back of the local train station or docks servicing Uber drivers and traveling salesmen. DonkeyApple said:
Flogging funeral insurance is a fantastic new enterprise. It’s highly lucrative because just like selling TV life insurance with an exciting free pen it is mostly bought by idiots who are easily scared and duped into buying a hugely marked up product while also thinking they are only going to live for another 5 years when all the statistics tell the vendor that they are going to live for another 20. 20 years of constant, monthly tapping of free money by direct debit. Happy days. It’s the classic death arbitrage model based on the basic principle that people always live far longer than they think they will.
The other interesting aspect of the funeral industry is that outside of a few chains like the CoOp the industry is mostly independent, family businesses. It is an industry that is being hit by the same issue that petrol stations and corner shops are being hit with, which is that the next generation don’t want to take over the business and there are big vulture funds operating to profit from this. One in particular is buying up all the family funeral directors on the cheap, keeping the branding and usually the owner on as manager but building a chain which allows them to centralise costs while increasing prices. At the same time you are buying a business on a multiple of 3 but probably able to book the asset into your chain on a much higher multiple, instantly making a large gain.
Lots of people dying and lots of them have an excess of money and a shortage of brains so all these harvesting industries are having a field day from equity release, to life insurance and now funeral costs. Donkey sanctuaries must really be feeling the pressure in the face of such strong competition.
The majority is still independent but only just. Coop and Dignity have aggressive expansion plans as do the smaller chains like Funeral Partners and Beverley Funerals. I have never met a funeral director who has sold on the cheap with some commanding ebitda multiples of 12x and higher. The other interesting aspect of the funeral industry is that outside of a few chains like the CoOp the industry is mostly independent, family businesses. It is an industry that is being hit by the same issue that petrol stations and corner shops are being hit with, which is that the next generation don’t want to take over the business and there are big vulture funds operating to profit from this. One in particular is buying up all the family funeral directors on the cheap, keeping the branding and usually the owner on as manager but building a chain which allows them to centralise costs while increasing prices. At the same time you are buying a business on a multiple of 3 but probably able to book the asset into your chain on a much higher multiple, instantly making a large gain.
Lots of people dying and lots of them have an excess of money and a shortage of brains so all these harvesting industries are having a field day from equity release, to life insurance and now funeral costs. Donkey sanctuaries must really be feeling the pressure in the face of such strong competition.
The elephant in the room is the funeral plan aspect of this industry. Independents are grouping together to protect themselves as their future revenue stream comes under threat. They’re not going to do that regular family funeral if a member has bought a coop plan based on a free £100 voucher etc.
Interesting industry.
swerni said:
red_slr said:
Venturist said:
I just don’t see that day ever coming in the sense that the generation before me seem to be obsessed with.
Wait till you have been working 30 years and come back to me LOL.I've had the last three months off and while it's be enjoyable, I'm now looking forward to going back to work.
djc206 said:
True to an extent but now that we have legislation forcing employers to provide pensions again we’re back on the road to sanity.
Seriously, for most the actual pension contributions are a pittance and will most likely go nowhere near to providing anything in old age to live comfortably. djc206 said:
True to an extent but now that we have legislation forcing employers to provide pensions again we’re back on the road to sanity.
Seriously, for most the actual pension contributions are a pittance and will most likely go nowhere near to providing anything in old age to live comfortably. tighnamara said:
djc206 said:
True to an extent but now that we have legislation forcing employers to provide pensions again we’re back on the road to sanity.
Seriously, for most the actual pension contributions are a pittance and will most likely go nowhere near to providing anything in old age to live comfortably. DonkeyApple said:
Savers aren’t people who want to be buried in a gold lined coffin but people who don’t want to spend 20 years sitting in urine being beaten by their State carers.
What makes you think that someone who doesn't like or want to spend money during the working part of their life would suddenly want to spend money when they are retired?My grandparents had money - not loads but enough to leave £100k each to their 4 daughters. They didn't want to spend any of it "just in case" and while it was nice my mum had some money I really wish they would have travelled or just done something with it while they were alive.
Having a pension that gives you the life that you want when you retire is sensible. Having 6 months or a years salary in savings is sensible. Having 10's of thousands in the bank with no desire to spend and a great desire to have more is, to me, just a complete waste.
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