The eleven plus - getting into grammar school?
Discussion
Can't see another section more appropriate for this, so I'll start it here in the Lounge.
My daughter has just started year 5 at school, so this year and next and then off to secondary school. There's only one school that's practical to get to from where she lives (mostly with my ex), and even that's a 30 minute bus journey away. And it has a pretty poor reputation, I can see why - the town it's in is fairly rough, so it's kind of inevitable. Whilst not some kind of childhood genius by any means, daughter is above average academically (doing very well in a primary school with 'excellent' ofsted rating), and definitely very studious. Nothing like I was at her age anyway!
There are a couple of grammar schools that are potentially accessible, and the current school has a reasonable history of students getting into them. Some of her friends are going to try and get in as well, so she is keen to try herself. But I don't know anything about how the 11+ works, what's required, how realistic a chance she has. We know a few kids in her class are already having extra tuition, so that's probably something we should be considering as well. I did ok at school in the end - reasonable exam results, decent engineering degree. So I can probably help her along (assuming I can remember anything useful). I think I heard somewhere that studying/practising on past papers can be enough, but that might be optimistic?
Anyone been through it with their own kids fairly recently? Any advice? Online resources? A quick google seemed to reveal plenty of tuition websites, and as you'd expect, they charge for their service. Could that be a practical alternative to face to face tuition, should we be doing both?
My daughter has just started year 5 at school, so this year and next and then off to secondary school. There's only one school that's practical to get to from where she lives (mostly with my ex), and even that's a 30 minute bus journey away. And it has a pretty poor reputation, I can see why - the town it's in is fairly rough, so it's kind of inevitable. Whilst not some kind of childhood genius by any means, daughter is above average academically (doing very well in a primary school with 'excellent' ofsted rating), and definitely very studious. Nothing like I was at her age anyway!
There are a couple of grammar schools that are potentially accessible, and the current school has a reasonable history of students getting into them. Some of her friends are going to try and get in as well, so she is keen to try herself. But I don't know anything about how the 11+ works, what's required, how realistic a chance she has. We know a few kids in her class are already having extra tuition, so that's probably something we should be considering as well. I did ok at school in the end - reasonable exam results, decent engineering degree. So I can probably help her along (assuming I can remember anything useful). I think I heard somewhere that studying/practising on past papers can be enough, but that might be optimistic?
Anyone been through it with their own kids fairly recently? Any advice? Online resources? A quick google seemed to reveal plenty of tuition websites, and as you'd expect, they charge for their service. Could that be a practical alternative to face to face tuition, should we be doing both?
We tried and “failed” last year. Actually we were very successful but not how I expected - I bought practice books and papers and worked through them with our daughter and she scored well but didn’t pass; this has left her with a 7 minute walk to a school which she loves, freedom to join any after school club she likes, and a completely transformed attitude to study.
I used CGP books which are better value if you buy more. I dropped a clanger because I ignored non-verbal reasoning which I assumed she’d ace - I was wrong; I’d also start practice tests much earlier if I did it again. The real killer is not the complexity of the questions but the required speed.
Don’t even try unless your child is committed - and your ex. If they are committed then start now and keep the work up.
I used CGP books which are better value if you buy more. I dropped a clanger because I ignored non-verbal reasoning which I assumed she’d ace - I was wrong; I’d also start practice tests much earlier if I did it again. The real killer is not the complexity of the questions but the required speed.
Don’t even try unless your child is committed - and your ex. If they are committed then start now and keep the work up.
Friends daughter is easily the brightest kid of any of my mates
They live in a grammar area and naively thought she'd walk the 11+ without any extra tuition cos she's "clever"
This was an incorrect assumption
Everybody else's kids were (probably) coached and flogged to within an inch of their lives by private tutors
Kid in question ended up in a non selective state school
She is currently in her second year at Oxford studying law in a highly competitive and photogenic college
Cheers
We know quite a few people who had private tutoring and their kids didn't get high enough marks for the grammar school.
Others did. It's a very heavy investment in time and money, and you also need to consider whether your child would be happy at a higher workload grammar or do better in a State school where they could be nearer the top.
Your primary school may teach extra things to cover the tests, or they may not.
If they don't, then you need to start maybe two years before the exam to get up to speed.
Mostly it's techniques that can be taught, and very formulaic questions. Some can be best guess when pushed for time.
Home tutoring is possible from past papers and guidebooks.
There are also plenty of companies that offer mock exams to see how things are going, and wherethe shortcomings are.
It's not just pass/fail, but you're competing for a place against all the other kids.
I think in our area there were about 1500 candidates, and maybe 300 places.
I think the bell curve for marks would be heavily skewed towards maxiimum marks, and getting one or two answers wrong can knock you right down the positions.
Others did. It's a very heavy investment in time and money, and you also need to consider whether your child would be happy at a higher workload grammar or do better in a State school where they could be nearer the top.
Your primary school may teach extra things to cover the tests, or they may not.
If they don't, then you need to start maybe two years before the exam to get up to speed.
Mostly it's techniques that can be taught, and very formulaic questions. Some can be best guess when pushed for time.
Home tutoring is possible from past papers and guidebooks.
There are also plenty of companies that offer mock exams to see how things are going, and wherethe shortcomings are.
It's not just pass/fail, but you're competing for a place against all the other kids.
I think in our area there were about 1500 candidates, and maybe 300 places.
I think the bell curve for marks would be heavily skewed towards maxiimum marks, and getting one or two answers wrong can knock you right down the positions.
Edited by cootuk on Wednesday 17th October 01:46
OP - you say your child is studious. Would you say she was in the top 3-5% of her class? If so then it’s definitely worth investing in extra tuition and online exams. Actually, thinking about it, its worth investing anyway. A bit of extra learning never did any harm 
The competition nowadays is cutthroat- our local Grammar school now accepts kids from 25 miles away whereas when I went there the catchment area was 4 miles. And the pressure that parents put on the kids is massive.
The competition nowadays is cutthroat- our local Grammar school now accepts kids from 25 miles away whereas when I went there the catchment area was 4 miles. And the pressure that parents put on the kids is massive.
Bill said:
Check the catchment area too. AIUI our local grammar requires higher marks from kids who live further away.
Ours is slightly different. It has a pass mark and local kids achieving the pass mark get offered places first. If all 150 places aren’t filled by local kids then they’re offered to kids outside the catchment area.However what they seem to have done is increase the threshold mark to 99.999%. As a result there are fewer local kids attending than when i went there and a lot more from further away.
From my experience, having two kids go through it, it is all about tutoring. Almost (and I mean 90%) everyone in their year groups had tutoring, and many had booked ‘The’ tutor 2 or 3 years in advance. It can put a lot of pressure on the kids thinking they ‘have’ to pass, especially with parents reminding them all the time how much they are spending on tuition.
We also considered ‘home tutoring’, as it struck us that the tutoring was really an awful lot of repetition but discovered early on that ours responded much better to a teacher/tutor than us. When we tried there was lots of battling to maintain attention and attitude they just wouldn’t have had the courage to show a teacher!
Unfortunately, unless your kid is Super Smart, they will likely benefit from/need the tutoring. I don’t think one child passed in the children’s years who hadn’t had it.
Having said all that, make sure your kid is suited to a Grammar School self-motivated, confident, able to learn on their own etc. Once they get there they run at a fast pace and can get left behind. Unfortunately saw many who gave their 11+ everything slip back once at the Grammar School
We also considered ‘home tutoring’, as it struck us that the tutoring was really an awful lot of repetition but discovered early on that ours responded much better to a teacher/tutor than us. When we tried there was lots of battling to maintain attention and attitude they just wouldn’t have had the courage to show a teacher!
Unfortunately, unless your kid is Super Smart, they will likely benefit from/need the tutoring. I don’t think one child passed in the children’s years who hadn’t had it.
Having said all that, make sure your kid is suited to a Grammar School self-motivated, confident, able to learn on their own etc. Once they get there they run at a fast pace and can get left behind. Unfortunately saw many who gave their 11+ everything slip back once at the Grammar School
Edited by peekay74 on Wednesday 17th October 07:07
Both mine did it, both had two hours tuition on a Saturday ( so not over the top). Both are at top 20 ranked schools. However .... be aware that they are taught the method to pass an exam,not to learn more.More importantly, even if they pass with flying colours, it still has to be the right school for them. My two kids had the choice of all four grammars in Essex due to their pass mark, we got the choice right with one but not the other.
If they are used to being one of the top dogs, and work better with the confidence that brings, it can be a massive shock to them going to a grammar school and finding themselves in the pack. My daughter has absolutely thrived,my son not so much.
Although I’m proud of what they have/are achieving its not for everyone,it is very pressurised and I’d still subscribe to the theory that a decent,intelligent,hard working kid will flourish at any half decent school.
If they are used to being one of the top dogs, and work better with the confidence that brings, it can be a massive shock to them going to a grammar school and finding themselves in the pack. My daughter has absolutely thrived,my son not so much.
Although I’m proud of what they have/are achieving its not for everyone,it is very pressurised and I’d still subscribe to the theory that a decent,intelligent,hard working kid will flourish at any half decent school.
We were in a similar situation to the OP. The local school is grim, but we have access to three grammar schools, the nearest being a 10 minute bus ride away so very convenient. No catchment area at all - if you pass, you can go! Thankfully our son passed.
There is a huge amount of "lively and good natured debate"
about tutoring. What a good tutor should be doing is teaching the technique to pass the exam. Most primary schools don't do anything on it. The exams are not long, so the last thing the pupil can afford is to turn the paper over and spend ten minutes trying to fathom it out. If the child doesn't have the academic qualities it wouldn't be right to put them through it. Your primary school would advise you on that. A bad tutor will just take your money.
We used this analogy with our son - a Premier League footballer already has the ability to be one of the best footballers in the world. But he still practices regularly. He has a coach and trainers who advise him on how he can improve and what he could do better and then he practices some more. That seemed to satisfy our then ten year old, and I still think it's a pretty reasonable description of what's involved.
Good luck OP. It's a tough year but it's well worth it in my opinion.
There is a huge amount of "lively and good natured debate"
about tutoring. What a good tutor should be doing is teaching the technique to pass the exam. Most primary schools don't do anything on it. The exams are not long, so the last thing the pupil can afford is to turn the paper over and spend ten minutes trying to fathom it out. If the child doesn't have the academic qualities it wouldn't be right to put them through it. Your primary school would advise you on that. A bad tutor will just take your money.We used this analogy with our son - a Premier League footballer already has the ability to be one of the best footballers in the world. But he still practices regularly. He has a coach and trainers who advise him on how he can improve and what he could do better and then he practices some more. That seemed to satisfy our then ten year old, and I still think it's a pretty reasonable description of what's involved.
Good luck OP. It's a tough year but it's well worth it in my opinion.
Bill said:
That may be the same here. I'm getting this from parents of a boy who didn't get in despite passing rather than the school.
Yep, I think we're saying the same thing. If the pass mark was 80% a kid inside the catchment area could get a place by scoring 81% whereas somebody from outside the area might not get one if they scored 99%.(due to preferential treatment to locals)sjc said:
Unless things have changed recently there is no such thing as a pass mark in the 11+.
You can easily get a score that would get you I a school that may be not logistically workable but might have a lower threshold for entrance.
I think the requirements vary nationwide. Ours worked on a pure ranking system. There were 150 places - the top 150 marks got offered places.You can easily get a score that would get you I a school that may be not logistically workable but might have a lower threshold for entrance.
RicksAlfas said:
sjc said:
Unless things have changed recently there is no such thing as a pass mark in the 11+.
You can easily get a score that would get you I a school that may be not logistically workable but might have a lower threshold for entrance.
I think the requirements vary nationwide. Ours worked on a pure ranking system. There were 150 places - the top 150 marks got offered places.You can easily get a score that would get you I a school that may be not logistically workable but might have a lower threshold for entrance.
Just got our daughter's results yesterday. She got 109, pass mark was 107. 1000 girls applying for 96 spaces, the real pass mark (where they are accepted to the school) is expected to be 110.
When we sat the exam (in Reading), I estimated 80% of the girls were Asian. From stories in previous years, it's widely known that as per above, a huge swathe of the girls are trained to within an inch of their lives to pass. Once they reach school, they are actually relatively stupid compared to the girls who pass on merit.
For us, it was a case of buying lots of training guides and practice papers. At least an hour a day on most days for 6 months or so. If you are serious, pay up for a tutor or risk losing out.
The risk was lower for us, the local secondary school is one of the best schools in West Berks and is across the road
When we sat the exam (in Reading), I estimated 80% of the girls were Asian. From stories in previous years, it's widely known that as per above, a huge swathe of the girls are trained to within an inch of their lives to pass. Once they reach school, they are actually relatively stupid compared to the girls who pass on merit.
For us, it was a case of buying lots of training guides and practice papers. At least an hour a day on most days for 6 months or so. If you are serious, pay up for a tutor or risk losing out.
The risk was lower for us, the local secondary school is one of the best schools in West Berks and is across the road
My son goes to a state school, the nearest non fee paying selective grammar school is 25 miles away in another county, so grammar schools aren't something that we had to consider. However my friends son has just done his 11 plus tests for this grammar school as he lives a 5 minute walk away.
He had a tutor for the whole of the previous year, costing circa £30 a week, and in the last week of the summer holidays my friend had him spending all day every day doing past papers. In that time I don't think that the lad ever managed to get the timing right, and even though he may have answered the questions correctly he always missed questions.
Ironically the issue of whether he goes to the grammar school even if he passes the 11 plus is now in question as his mum would prefer him to go to a church school, and the grammar school is directly opposite the non selective academy which is where the kid would rather go as he has friends there.
We (my wife and I) looked at some of the practice papers for both the verbal and non verbal reasoning tests. My wife was a teacher, and I'm not daft, but we struggled with them. They seemed more akin to puzzles from the few I looked at.
I would not have been able to answer the questions if they were just presented to me. Without tutoring of some kind I would imagine that the tests would be nigh on impossible for a child to pass.
He had a tutor for the whole of the previous year, costing circa £30 a week, and in the last week of the summer holidays my friend had him spending all day every day doing past papers. In that time I don't think that the lad ever managed to get the timing right, and even though he may have answered the questions correctly he always missed questions.
Ironically the issue of whether he goes to the grammar school even if he passes the 11 plus is now in question as his mum would prefer him to go to a church school, and the grammar school is directly opposite the non selective academy which is where the kid would rather go as he has friends there.
We (my wife and I) looked at some of the practice papers for both the verbal and non verbal reasoning tests. My wife was a teacher, and I'm not daft, but we struggled with them. They seemed more akin to puzzles from the few I looked at.
I would not have been able to answer the questions if they were just presented to me. Without tutoring of some kind I would imagine that the tests would be nigh on impossible for a child to pass.
Puggit said:
Just got our daughter's results yesterday. She got 109, pass mark was 107. 1000 girls applying for 96 spaces, the real pass mark (where they are accepted to the school) is expected to be 110.
You may well find if she's that close she will get in,as some take up other offers, get private scholarships, move away etc. In any case well done to her.Gassing Station | The Lounge | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff