Do these ball joints look OK?
Discussion
Had the front ball joints on my Range Rover changed by a garage exactly 2 months ago. I’ve always had a good relationship with them and they seem very honest.
Since they were changed, the steering felt a lot stiffer, and there was often a clunking noise when changing direction. I looked underneath and this is what the ball joints looked like:
To me, they don’t look in great condition, considering they’re almost new. I took the car back to the garage about the stiff steering and they said there was an issue in the steering rack, which they’ve now fixed. The ball joints are apparently fine. After picking the car up, it still feels a bit stiff to me, although perhaps a bit less so than before. I haven’t heard any clunking noises yet.
So, what do we think? Do they look alright to you or should I take it back again? The steering doesn’t bother me (it actually feels very good!) but I don’t want to potentially damage other components by driving it in a non-repaired state.
Thanks
Since they were changed, the steering felt a lot stiffer, and there was often a clunking noise when changing direction. I looked underneath and this is what the ball joints looked like:
To me, they don’t look in great condition, considering they’re almost new. I took the car back to the garage about the stiff steering and they said there was an issue in the steering rack, which they’ve now fixed. The ball joints are apparently fine. After picking the car up, it still feels a bit stiff to me, although perhaps a bit less so than before. I haven’t heard any clunking noises yet.
So, what do we think? Do they look alright to you or should I take it back again? The steering doesn’t bother me (it actually feels very good!) but I don’t want to potentially damage other components by driving it in a non-repaired state.
Thanks
They don't look great to me. I'd suspect the ones in your pics haven't been done, but wouldn't want to pass judgement without being under the car. Personally i'd take it elsewhere for a second opinion, maybe an honest back st garage that will let you look under there with them whilst it's up in the air. Points to note:
1. Evidently someone has had a go at doing something, you can see the hammer marks where they've tried to loosen off the tapered ball joint.
2. It looks like (and it's the norm these days) that you can't just change the ball joints, it has to be the complete arm.
3. Are they talking about a different ball joint? Some suspensions have multiple ones, i'm not familiar with that car. There are many joints which will cause what you are experiencing.
You can tell if its worn by putting a bar in the joint and checking for play, I shouldn't be pointing this out on a public forum, but it is possible (and quite wrong) to tighten BJs up by bashing on the cap to stop them from rattling, something to look out for.
1. Evidently someone has had a go at doing something, you can see the hammer marks where they've tried to loosen off the tapered ball joint.
2. It looks like (and it's the norm these days) that you can't just change the ball joints, it has to be the complete arm.
3. Are they talking about a different ball joint? Some suspensions have multiple ones, i'm not familiar with that car. There are many joints which will cause what you are experiencing.
You can tell if its worn by putting a bar in the joint and checking for play, I shouldn't be pointing this out on a public forum, but it is possible (and quite wrong) to tighten BJs up by bashing on the cap to stop them from rattling, something to look out for.
I was going to post earlier, but apparently I can’t post before 9am??
They do not look like they were new 2 months ago, and they look split, not just as if they’re old, but as if someone has taken a fork shaped ball joint splitter to them, then given up?
^^^He might be right, someone’s thumped them a few times and stuck a buzz gun on them to tighten them up as much as they can, and just left them.
I’d dig out your invoice and see exactly what work was supposedly carried out, and get someone else to take a look if you’re unsure about exactly what should have been changed before you go charging in there, we might all be misinterpreting what they’ve changed.
They do not look like they were new 2 months ago, and they look split, not just as if they’re old, but as if someone has taken a fork shaped ball joint splitter to them, then given up?
^^^He might be right, someone’s thumped them a few times and stuck a buzz gun on them to tighten them up as much as they can, and just left them.
I’d dig out your invoice and see exactly what work was supposedly carried out, and get someone else to take a look if you’re unsure about exactly what should have been changed before you go charging in there, we might all be misinterpreting what they’ve changed.
You can see witness marks on the arm where it's been whacked with a big hammer but that would be normal if the BJ's were changed. It does look like the rubber boots are split which would be indicative of a pickle fork being used.
Normally, you'd use one of those if you were intending to discard the BJ for a new one & weren't fussed about damaging the existing BJ. That said, it might just be the design of the boots I'm seeing or the angle of the photos- I'm not familiar with the cars.
In the end, anyone can make a mistake & if it's a garage you know well & have trusted before, I'd be popping in for a chat, see what they say.
Normally, you'd use one of those if you were intending to discard the BJ for a new one & weren't fussed about damaging the existing BJ. That said, it might just be the design of the boots I'm seeing or the angle of the photos- I'm not familiar with the cars.
In the end, anyone can make a mistake & if it's a garage you know well & have trusted before, I'd be popping in for a chat, see what they say.
227bhp said:
They don't look great to me. I'd suspect the ones in your pics haven't been done, but wouldn't want to pass judgement without being under the car. Personally i'd take it elsewhere for a second opinion, maybe an honest back st garage that will let you look under there with them whilst it's up in the air. Points to note:
1. Evidently someone has had a go at doing something, you can see the hammer marks where they've tried to loosen off the tapered ball joint.
2. It looks like (and it's the norm these days) that you can't just change the ball joints, it has to be the complete arm.
3. Are they talking about a different ball joint? Some suspensions have multiple ones, i'm not familiar with that car. There are many joints which will cause what you are experiencing.
You can tell if its worn by putting a bar in the joint and checking for play, I shouldn't be pointing this out on a public forum, but it is possible (and quite wrong) to tighten BJs up by bashing on the cap to stop them from rattling, something to look out for.
As far as I can see, those ball joints can be changed without replacing the entire arm. They're available individually on RockAuto and they've charged me on the invoice for front ball joints, and not the complete arm. Those are the only ball joints I can see at the front.1. Evidently someone has had a go at doing something, you can see the hammer marks where they've tried to loosen off the tapered ball joint.
2. It looks like (and it's the norm these days) that you can't just change the ball joints, it has to be the complete arm.
3. Are they talking about a different ball joint? Some suspensions have multiple ones, i'm not familiar with that car. There are many joints which will cause what you are experiencing.
You can tell if its worn by putting a bar in the joint and checking for play, I shouldn't be pointing this out on a public forum, but it is possible (and quite wrong) to tighten BJs up by bashing on the cap to stop them from rattling, something to look out for.
May be a stupid question, but in terms of putting a bar on it, where exactly should I be levering it from? I've never checked suspension before: I normally just do a visual check if I hear noise and take it to a garage.
BathyThermo said:
I was going to post earlier, but apparently I can’t post before 9am??
They do not look like they were new 2 months ago, and they look split, not just as if they’re old, but as if someone has taken a fork shaped ball joint splitter to them, then given up?
^^^He might be right, someone’s thumped them a few times and stuck a buzz gun on them to tighten them up as much as they can, and just left them.
I’d dig out your invoice and see exactly what work was supposedly carried out, and get someone else to take a look if you’re unsure about exactly what should have been changed before you go charging in there, we might all be misinterpreting what they’ve changed.
According to the invoice, they ordered two new front ball joints, and changed them. They said yesterday that those were the ball joints that were changed.They do not look like they were new 2 months ago, and they look split, not just as if they’re old, but as if someone has taken a fork shaped ball joint splitter to them, then given up?
^^^He might be right, someone’s thumped them a few times and stuck a buzz gun on them to tighten them up as much as they can, and just left them.
I’d dig out your invoice and see exactly what work was supposedly carried out, and get someone else to take a look if you’re unsure about exactly what should have been changed before you go charging in there, we might all be misinterpreting what they’ve changed.
Cankicker said:
You can see witness marks on the arm where it's been whacked with a big hammer but that would be normal if the BJ's were changed. It does look like the rubber boots are split which would be indicative of a pickle fork being used.
Normally, you'd use one of those if you were intending to discard the BJ for a new one & weren't fussed about damaging the existing BJ. That said, it might just be the design of the boots I'm seeing or the angle of the photos- I'm not familiar with the cars.
In the end, anyone can make a mistake & if it's a garage you know well & have trusted before, I'd be popping in for a chat, see what they say.
I had a chat with them yesterday, and they insisted that they were fine. I didn't want to argue with them, so I just paid for the work apparently done on the steering rack, and left. It just seems bizarre to me that the instant I put it in for repair, this issue started. To me, it seems likely that they either haven't fitted something correctly, or have damaged something whilst carrying out the work.Normally, you'd use one of those if you were intending to discard the BJ for a new one & weren't fussed about damaging the existing BJ. That said, it might just be the design of the boots I'm seeing or the angle of the photos- I'm not familiar with the cars.
In the end, anyone can make a mistake & if it's a garage you know well & have trusted before, I'd be popping in for a chat, see what they say.
Correlation isn't necessarily causation. The ball joints you photographed don't look great. What they do though is connect the suspension arm to the hub/knuckle for pleasant up & downness in the suspension. The tie rod balljoint connects the steering rack to the wheel hub, so it's not necessarily these ball joints that are causing the issue you describe. If it were my car & I'd essentially been fobbed off, I'd be off somewhere else for a second opinion.
What else was done to the car at the same time?
What else was done to the car at the same time?
Cankicker said:
Correlation isn't necessarily causation. The ball joints you photographed don't look great. What they do though is connect the suspension arm to the hub/knuckle for pleasant up & downness in the suspension. The tie rod balljoint connects the steering rack to the wheel hub, so it's not necessarily these ball joints that are causing the issue you describe. If it were my car & I'd essentially been fobbed off, I'd be off somewhere else for a second opinion.
What else was done to the car at the same time?
Ah, I see. Are the tie rod ball joints something I can easily check myself?What else was done to the car at the same time?
This was the work done when the issue started:
Front discs and pads
2 wheel bearings
Front ball joints
Adjustment and greasing of steering rack
Change diff and transmission oil
When I brought it back yesterday and mentioned that I thought there might be an issue with the ball joints, they said that the ball joints were fine, but they inspected the steering rack and changed a valve (I think, my Spanish isn't too good!). They mentioned that this valve was leaking, but the PAS fluid level hasn't dropped at all and there's no stains on my driveway. Of course, I understand that any leak could have been contained within the steering rack.
When driving it yesterday, I didn't notice any strange noises from the steering, but it still feels a lot stiffer than before and doesn't re-centre when turning if I let go of the wheel.
I think I'll take it to another place next week for a second opinion.
Geekman said:
Adjustment and greasing of steering rack
.
This is leaping off the page. I mean you can put things out of norms by doing anything to a car, the jobs you describe don't really look likely to stiffen the steering by themselves to my mind, except maybe the wheel hubs if under/over torqued & even then it's not likely. I'd be asking what exactly is mean by adjusting the steering. It's not normal afaik to go near steering racks under normal circs on suspension jobs. They shouldn't have touched the tie rods to change the ball joints unless they have also changed the outer tie rod with it's ball joint & then in that case, they should have done an alignment & that seems more plausible given the problem you describe..
The tie rod is this part. The right side as you look at it goes to the suspension knuckle & the other end connects to the steering rack.
Edited by Cankicker on Tuesday 21st May 13:54
Cankicker said:
This is leaping off the page. I mean you can put things out of norms by doing anything to a car, the jobs you describe don't really look likely to stiffen the steering by themselves to my mind, except maybe the wheel hubs if under/over torqued & even then it's not likely. I'd be asking what exactly is mean by adjusting the steering. It's not normal afaik to go near steering racks under normal circs on suspension jobs. They shouldn't have touched the tie rods to change the ball joints unless they have also changed the outer tie rod with it's ball joint & then in that case, they should have done an alignment & that seems more plausible given the problem you describe.
The tie rod is this part. The right side as you look at it goes to the suspension knuckle & the other end connects to the steering rack.
Thanks: much appreciated!The tie rod is this part. The right side as you look at it goes to the suspension knuckle & the other end connects to the steering rack.
Edited by Cankicker on Tuesday 21st May 13:54
On the receipt it says "adjust, pack and grease the steering rack". I asked them about it yesterday and they said that when I'd first brought it in, they'd noticed a noise when steering, which is why they performed that work. Personally, I'd never noticed any noise: the main reason I brought it to them was for the wheel bearings and some knocking when going over bumps, which has since been fixed.
I don't think they did an alignment as it's not noted anywhere on the receipt. There's a place in town with a good reputation: I'm thinking of taking it in for an alignment and getting them to check the suspension whilst it's there. Could bad alignment cause stiff steering?
227bhp said:
Its possible they've replaced the TREs - track rod ends which are also ball joints and make the steering rattle.
This is what I would look at. If the wheel bearings have been changed, then it's likely they undid all of the components attached to the wheel hub & that would include the track rod ends. If they changed the tre's then obviously they've come off.In the case of the wheel bearing, it's possible they've inadvertently rotated the track rod which is on a thread & therefore changed its length which in turn alters the steering geometry but if they've also changed the outer TRE I.e. the part that bolts to the hub, then they would have had to unscrew it from the inner TRE & that requires an alignment. Changing the outer ball joints, discs & wheel bearings shouldn't in & of themselves require an alignment with a careful mechanic as they're non geo parts but they've clearly done something odd to it.
Second opinion time. It's that adjust steering rack that gets to me. Not a Rangey owner, so maybe I'm missing something, but I can't see what you would adjust on a steering rack other than the track rods.
Cankicker said:
This is what I would look at. If the wheel bearings have been changed, then it's likely they undid all of the components attached to the wheel hub & that would include the track rod ends. If they changed the tre's then obviously they've come off.
In the case of the wheel bearing, it's possible they've inadvertently rotated the track rod which is on a thread & therefore changed its length which in turn alters the steering geometry but if they've also changed the outer TRE I.e. the part that bolts to the hub, then they would have had to unscrew it from the inner TRE & that requires an alignment. Changing the outer ball joints, discs & wheel bearings shouldn't in & of themselves require an alignment with a careful mechanic as they're non geo parts but they've clearly done something odd to it.
Second opinion time. It's that adjust steering rack that gets to me. Not a Rangey owner, so maybe I'm missing something, but I can't see what you would adjust on a steering rack other than the track rods.
OK, so next thing to do would be taking it to a decent suspension / alignment shop for a second opinion then?In the case of the wheel bearing, it's possible they've inadvertently rotated the track rod which is on a thread & therefore changed its length which in turn alters the steering geometry but if they've also changed the outer TRE I.e. the part that bolts to the hub, then they would have had to unscrew it from the inner TRE & that requires an alignment. Changing the outer ball joints, discs & wheel bearings shouldn't in & of themselves require an alignment with a careful mechanic as they're non geo parts but they've clearly done something odd to it.
Second opinion time. It's that adjust steering rack that gets to me. Not a Rangey owner, so maybe I'm missing something, but I can't see what you would adjust on a steering rack other than the track rods.
M_A_S said:
You can't adjust, pack or indeed grease the rack on that Range Rover.
Well..... That's worrying. They wrote exactly that on the receipt.Geekman said:
OK, so next thing to do would be taking it to a decent suspension / alignment shop for a second opinion then?
If you're certain the car has changed characteristics then the ideal scenario is to take it to a Land Rover dealer who can test it against factory specs. If that's not possible, then a reputable specialist would be next on the list if it were mine. FWIW, I had a terrible time pinning down a front suspension clunk on a Porsche, had it in at various specialists & OPC's & in the end, Centre Gravity, who have a great reputation, spotted the battery had been changed for a smaller one & it was sliding around & banging against the edge of its tray every time I went round a corner - fixed with a bit of foam, so the answers are always out there if you can find people long enough in the tooth to have seen everything that can arise with a car.
You might want to revisit the battery security if it's still loose.
Depending on the degree it could be a minor or a major.
www.mot-testing.service.gov.uk/documents/manuals/c...
Depending on the degree it could be a minor or a major.
www.mot-testing.service.gov.uk/documents/manuals/c...
Cankicker said:
If you're certain the car has changed characteristics then the ideal scenario is to take it to a Land Rover dealer who can test it against factory specs. If that's not possible, then a reputable specialist would be next on the list if it were mine.
FWIW, I had a terrible time pinning down a front suspension clunk on a Porsche, had it in at various specialists & OPC's & in the end, Centre Gravity, who have a great reputation, spotted the battery had been changed for a smaller one & it was sliding around & banging against the edge of its tray every time I went round a corner - fixed with a bit of foam, so the answers are always out there if you can find people long enough in the tooth to have seen everything that can arise with a car.
It's definitely changed characteristics, although I'm perfectly happy with the way it drives now. My only concern is that if something has been incorrectly installed or set up, other parts can get damaged.FWIW, I had a terrible time pinning down a front suspension clunk on a Porsche, had it in at various specialists & OPC's & in the end, Centre Gravity, who have a great reputation, spotted the battery had been changed for a smaller one & it was sliding around & banging against the edge of its tray every time I went round a corner - fixed with a bit of foam, so the answers are always out there if you can find people long enough in the tooth to have seen everything that can arise with a car.
My local main dealer isn't very good unfortunately. I'm more than happy to drive the car as it is, but I just want to avoid any future issues.
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