Transfer of (small) Barclays DB Pension

[mids]

troika said:

Sounds a nightmare. How can costs spiral 4X? That’s the other thing of course, the Barclays CETV is valid for 3 months so could find a situation of increasing costs and reducing value. I’m thinking for such a relatively small pot, it’s just not worth the agro.

Initial FA was recommended with an estimate for how much this would cost. However, once the process was underway, the FA farmed out the liability to another company who have attached their own fee structure (only payable if the transfer is completed). I'm still not entirely sure how it's going to play out, if the report recommends that I don't transfer then I *think* I can still go ahead but I'm still trying to figure out how that works.

My CETV was also 3 months but it seems that's not enough to get everything sorted in time so I'm going to need another one.

[JulianPH]

Helicopter123 said:

JulianPH said:

Stay in Bed Instead said:

Hopefully as he is a regulated individual the Ombudsman, if it gets that far, would consider that he should have known what he was doing. Was it a UK stock he invested in?

Edited by Stay in Bed Instead on Sunday 26th January 09:54

Yes, he was (and still is) a regulated individual and yes, it was a UK stock.

We have absolutely nothing to worry about, it is just the incredible cheek of it!

That's a shocker Julian.

I've seen worse Mark!

Once an IFA who was using a branded SIPP we provided for his platform of choice emailed us to ask if he could make an off platform investment though this SIPP or whether he needed to open another one for this client/investment.

One of our SIPP managers emailed him back saying he could do it through the platform SIPP, but if he did decide to go ahead with this off-platform investment it was very important he let us know in writing (email was fine) before the money came through so that the transaction team had something on file to keep this money in the cash account (rather than include it in the bulk daily platform transfer).

We never heard anything back from him.

Six month later he is on the phone to us going ballistic that said client had transferred the money to us and we had moved it onto his platform, resulting in £16k of investment loss he wanted us to pay for.

Despite us pointing out he never sent an instruction to do otherwise (which he admitted) and that everything was in writing he still took us to the Ombudsman, who found against him.

However upon his appeal they ordered us to pay half the investment loss, despite acknowledging that the IFA had never instructed us to do anything other than what we rightfully did.

To add insult to injury, the IFA charged the client £18k for his part in this transaction and an additional £6k a year in ongoing fees.


In another example, an IFA who had charged his client £15k (plus a £5k ongoing annual fee) to switch her pension to us, was approached by her a couple of months later to switch another small pension (that she had forgotten about) to us.

He told her it wasn't worth his time and she should go directly to us with this one.

Cue said IFA going ballistic at us for "stealing" said client when she decided to save a fortune by moving everything directly with us, despite the fact he told her to go directly to us for the smaller amount because despite earning £15k from her two months ago and £5k a year for ongoing support he wasn't prepared to handle a simple matter for her.


Then we have the IFA network that called to inform us that it was selling all of its platform assets, over half of which were in our SIPPs and pensions. We had to point out that just because we had branded these for them, it didn't mean they belonged to them and they were therefore trying to sell something they didn't even own!


One of my favourites though is from many years ago before everything was done online. I was alerted by one of the managers that an IFA had been going ballistic at a new, junior, member of the team, leaving her in tears.

Now I won't stand for bullying and am very protective of our team, so after listening to the recordings of the calls I called him myself.

His swearing rants were because we were apparently lying to him by pretending not to have received application forms he had sent us. I was getting nowhere until he told me that the Royal Mail informed him we should have received them.

I asked why he had checked this with the Royal Mail and he said "because I got the address wrong on the envelope"!!!

It never occurred to him that repeatedly sending vast amounts of personal client information (name, address NI number, occupation, earnings, bank account details. etc.) and cheques to the wrong address (when our address was clearly shown on the application forms) could be anyone's fault other than his own.

I could go on (and on) but this is somewhat off the original topic, so I'll leave it at saying that there are no doubt some really good IFAs out there, but they are (in my long experience) the minority.

[JulianPH]

bhstewie said:

Is there not some kind of IFA forum where that sort of thing gets discussed and people like this "senior IFA" simply get a bit of a name in the industry?

Or are there simply that many "senior IFA's" that the title becomes a little meaningless?

Sorry, it was me referring to him as a "senior" IFA, because of the position he holds within a national firm (a director, no doubt powerfully built too! ).

[JulianPH]

mids said:

JulianPH said:

Sorry to hear you are still experiencing problems with this transfer and it must obviously be seriously tarnishing your experience of moving to IM.

I know this is out of our hands, but if there is anything we can do to assist please do not hesitate to contact Nik.

Thanks Julian. I definitely under-estimated what was involved so I probably shouldn't complain too much about what's happening.

There is also no rush and I'm in no hurry to have the money transferred but I'm concerned that by having the CETV expire that by subsequently having to go get another valuation it runs the risk of the updated transfer total being reduced. Just one percent difference would be thousands of pounds. I know that the 2nd CETV could also be a higher valuation than the 1st but I'd rather not roll the dice.

Have you received the written DB transfer advice? If so we can become fully involved in chasing this up.

The actual DB transfer can take a very long time to be pushed through (despite us chasing this all the time), but 5 months on the advice side of it is absolutely ridiculous.

[mids]

JulianPH said:

Have you received the written DB transfer advice?

Nope, still waiting. I called them the other day to ask for an update,. They explained that they are snowed under and have stopped taking on new clients whilst they deal with the back-log but couldn't estimate when my report was going to be ready.

To be fair, the 5 months is from the very start of the process (me sending off the first letter asking for the CETV). I received that early November so the 3 month expiry date is about to pass in a couple of weeks time.

[JulianPH]

mids said:

JulianPH said:

Have you received the written DB transfer advice?

Nope, still waiting. I called them the other day to ask for an update,. They explained that they are snowed under and have stopped taking on new clients whilst they deal with the back-log but couldn't estimate when my report was going to be ready.

To be fair, the 5 months is from the very start of the process (me sending off the first letter asking for the CETV). I received that early November so the 3 month expiry date is about to pass in a couple of weeks time.

If you would like any assistance in using the right wording to give them a push just let me know.

One thing I would be certainly saying to the IFA is that if their delay is genuinely out of proportion (to you personally, as their paying client) and this causes you investment loss then you will seek to recover it from them.

Being busy and stopping taking on new clients is no excuse whatsoever for not delivering with existing clients.

You should not suffer any financial disadvantage because an IFA has not delivered within the time frame available, providing they were aware of this (which I am sure they were).

Did you sign terms with them?

[mids]

JulianPH said:

If you would like any assistance in using the right wording to give them a push just let me know.

One thing I would be certainly saying to the IFA is that if their delay is genuinely out of proportion (to you personally, as their paying client) and this causes you investment loss then you will seek to recover it from them.

Being busy and stopping taking on new clients is no excuse whatsoever for not delivering with existing clients.

You should not suffer any financial disadvantage because an IFA has not delivered within the time frame available, providing they were aware of this (which I am sure they were).

Did you sign terms with them?

Thanks for the offer. I'll send you another email to explain (we discussed this a while ago when I was looking for an IFA) rather than derail troika's thread too much.

[JulianPH]

mids said:

Thanks for the offer. I'll send you another email to explain (we discussed this a while ago when I was looking for an IFA) rather than derail troika's thread too much.

You have mail!

[craig1912]

mids said:

ope, still waiting. I called them the other day to ask for an update,. They explained that they are snowed under and have stopped taking on new clients whilst they deal with the back-log but couldn't estimate when my report was going to be ready.

To be fair, the 5 months is from the very start of the process (me sending off the first letter asking for the CETV). I received that early November so the 3 month expiry date is about to pass in a couple of weeks time.

5 months is ridiculous. From my initial conversation with my IFA (when I had my CETV) took about 6 weeks for him to write the report, get sign off from his network compliance and get the transfer done (from Aviva).
I was charged £1250 for the report (near seven figure CETV) and ongoing of approx £3000pa.
So there are some decent IFA’s out there but I guess not always easy to find and even less so for a DB transfer given the FCA are scrutinising this area (quite rightly given the appalling advice given to some pension scheme members).

[Brads67]

craig1912 said:

5 months is ridiculous. From my initial conversation with my IFA (when I had my CETV) took about 6 weeks for him to write the report, get sign off from his network compliance and get the transfer done (from Aviva).
I was charged £1250 for the report (near seven figure CETV) and ongoing of approx £3000pa.
So there are some decent IFA’s out there but I guess not always easy to find and even less so for a DB transfer given the FCA are scrutinising this area (quite rightly given the appalling advice given to some pension scheme members).

£1250 for SEVEN figure transfer !?

Utter bargain nowadays. 1% is the norm but not the best.

Mids You have my sympathy. It's a stressful time for sure.

[craig1912]

Brads67 said:

£1250 for SEVEN figure transfer !?

Utter bargain nowadays. 1% is the norm but not the best.

Mids You have my sympathy. It's a stressful time for sure.

Yes I know and that was only just over 12 months ago. Things have change massively

[NickCQ]

Brads67 said:

£1250 for SEVEN figure transfer !?

Utter bargain nowadays. 1% is the norm but not the best.

Mids You have my sympathy. It's a stressful time for sure.

For a pot that size it makes sense to price cheaply as a customer acquisition tool?
IFA will more than make his money back on the recurring fees, transaction / churn etc.

For a small pot there's no point discounting the razor as no-one's buying the blades.

[craig1912]

NickCQ said:

For a pot that size it makes sense to price cheaply as a customer acquisition tool?
IFA will more than make his money back on the recurring fees, transaction / churn etc.

For a small pot there's no point discounting the razor as no-one's buying the blades.

It’s not priced cheaply- it’s priced based on the work needed to do it.
There’s no transaction/ churn in fact we’ve just moved provider to save on charges (at no extra cost) and I’m free to walk away at any time.

[JulianPH]

I read an interesting article in the FT yesterday.

The FCA is being asked to contact 160,000 people who made DB transfers between 2015 and 2018, after it revealed that nearly 80% of the IFA firms involved provided "bad advice" and "potential harm".

It is being described as a potential £80bn mis-selling scandal.

So it is not a surprise that it is difficult to find a good IFA to undertake this work for you now days.

[NickCQ]

craig1912 said:

There’s no transaction/ churn in fact we’ve just moved provider to save on charges (at no extra cost) and I’m free to walk away at any time.

You moved but I'm sure many don't... the IFA business model is predicated upon inertia

[Brave Fart]

A very interesting thread, and Troika I agree with pretty much everything you've said. I find it ridiculous that I can totally alter the risk profile of my DC pension scheme, or even cash savings, with no barriers. Yet if my wife wishes to convert her DB pension (which will pay peanuts IF she lives another ten years) into a £75k DB sum she is prevented from doing so. Where is the fairness in that?

I also question the £30k cut off point where advice becomes compulsory. Would it be sensible to raise that limit to, say, £100k, or £250k or something? This would remove the "sue the IFA even if it's my decision" culture, and remove this stupid barrier that stops people accessing their own money.
It would mean that only serious lump sums would require compulsory advice.
What am I missing?

[Helicopter123]

Brave Fart said:

A very interesting thread, and Troika I agree with pretty much everything you've said. I find it ridiculous that I can totally alter the risk profile of my DC pension scheme, or even cash savings, with no barriers. Yet if my wife wishes to convert her DB pension (which will pay peanuts IF she lives another ten years) into a £75k DB sum she is prevented from doing so. Where is the fairness in that?

I also question the £30k cut off point where advice becomes compulsory. Would it be sensible to raise that limit to, say, £100k, or £250k or something? This would remove the "sue the IFA even if it's my decision" culture, and remove this stupid barrier that stops people accessing their own money.
It would mean that only serious lump sums would require compulsory advice.
What am I missing?

Quite simply, someone with a £150k DB pension as their only pension, is almost certain to be better off sticking with it. The rules are there to protect individuals.

Costs of DB work are spiralling. Those with a scheme will only face less choice amongst advisers and higher costs by delaying. The market could easily close down altogether quite soon.

None of this is the fault of IFAs.

[Jasey_]

Helicopter123 said:

None of this is the fault of IFAs.

Not sure about that.

Pretty sure all this st has come about as a result of the actions of dodgy IFAs and people who can't use a calculator !

https://www.corries.co.uk/pension-claims/transferr...

"Were you advised by any of the following IFAs?
Harry Hewitt
Bradford & Bingley
Northern Rock
Independent Financial Advice (UK) Ltd
Alliance Insurance Brokers
South Riding Insurance Services
Brian Wright & Associates
Bain Hogg Financial Services
Bain Clarkson Financial Services
Woodwards IFA
Sharman Associates
Roy Pink & Co
Berkeley Independent Advisers
Individual Savings and Insurance Services (ISIS) Ltd
Allied Anglo Financial Services
Hadley Cannon Ltd
Paul Childs (Worksop) Ltd
There are many hundreds of IFAs involved, these are just a few of them. Please call us if you were advised by an IFA to leave your final salary work pension."

Edited by Jasey_ on Tuesday 28th January 09:03

[JulianPH]

Jasey_ said:

Individual Savings and Insurance Services (ISIS) Ltd

You've got to love an IFA firm called ISIS!!!

[Jasey_]

JulianPH said:

Jasey_ said:

Individual Savings and Insurance Services (ISIS) Ltd

You've got to love an IFA firm called ISIS!!!

didn't read it