Leaving the rat race after COVID
Discussion
Condi said:
Loads of people will be looking to take their London salaries and move further out into a bigger place. If you only have to be in the office 2 days a week then a longer commute is more acceptable than if you were doing it every day, and costs are lower overall. Given as within the city itself 1hr commutes are not uncommon, 1.5 hrs 2 days a week is much less time overall sat on a train. For what you can buy in the capital, go to Oxforshire, Hampshire, Sussex etc and you get heaps more for the same money.
Whilst they might be looking, the sensible will wait. Whilst the world may have been turned on its head there is all possibility that it could re-right itself next year and people will be back in the office 4-5 days a week with appropriate controls and checks and balances. Jasey_ said:
In my early 20s I was working in London "enjoying" the commute from Teddington to Westminster.
We got a 6 week job in Aberdeen and I volunteered to take it on.
2 years later and still on the job the client offered me a permanent job that essentially meant talking a 50% pay cut.
took it and have never looked back.
Sold my 2 bed mid terrace house in Teddington and bought a 4 bedroom detached new build in Banchory for pretty much the same money.
[url]
v
When I had to make the decision it basically came down to working in London is a young person's game - I wouldn't want to be doing it after I was into my 30s - And that was 30 years ago - pretty sure it hasn't improved !
That is a great result.We got a 6 week job in Aberdeen and I volunteered to take it on.
2 years later and still on the job the client offered me a permanent job that essentially meant talking a 50% pay cut.
took it and have never looked back.
Sold my 2 bed mid terrace house in Teddington and bought a 4 bedroom detached new build in Banchory for pretty much the same money.
[url]v
When I had to make the decision it basically came down to working in London is a young person's game - I wouldn't want to be doing it after I was into my 30s - And that was 30 years ago - pretty sure it hasn't improved !
Edited by Jasey_ on Tuesday 7th July 09:43
The only thing that would have made it better would be to have kept the Teddington house and let it earn you a lot of free money to fund your retirement. I guess that wasn’t as easy or fashionable an option as it is now.
BobSaunders said:
Condi said:
Loads of people will be looking to take their London salaries and move further out into a bigger place. If you only have to be in the office 2 days a week then a longer commute is more acceptable than if you were doing it every day, and costs are lower overall. Given as within the city itself 1hr commutes are not uncommon, 1.5 hrs 2 days a week is much less time overall sat on a train. For what you can buy in the capital, go to Oxforshire, Hampshire, Sussex etc and you get heaps more for the same money.
Whilst they might be looking, the sensible will wait. Whilst the world may have been turned on its head there is all possibility that it could re-right itself next year and people will be back in the office 4-5 days a week with appropriate controls and checks and balances. The days of huge central offices are dead, and with them will go a lot of Pret's, the Starbuck's and the Greggs which have sprung up to service lunchtime breaks.
Condi said:
BobSaunders said:
Condi said:
Loads of people will be looking to take their London salaries and move further out into a bigger place. If you only have to be in the office 2 days a week then a longer commute is more acceptable than if you were doing it every day, and costs are lower overall. Given as within the city itself 1hr commutes are not uncommon, 1.5 hrs 2 days a week is much less time overall sat on a train. For what you can buy in the capital, go to Oxforshire, Hampshire, Sussex etc and you get heaps more for the same money.
Whilst they might be looking, the sensible will wait. Whilst the world may have been turned on its head there is all possibility that it could re-right itself next year and people will be back in the office 4-5 days a week with appropriate controls and checks and balances. The days of huge central offices are dead, and with them will go a lot of Pret's, the Starbuck's and the Greggs which have sprung up to service lunchtime breaks.
Condi said:
I don't think so. There is a seismic shift happening in work patterns and many people are finding it very beneficial to their quality of life. Our office is not planning to be at more than 30% occupancy until 2021, and by the time the current system has worked for 9 months it will be hard for the business to argue that it needs 100% of its staff sat at a desk all day long. Equally many businesses are looking at their offices wondering if that £500k/year is really good value or if they can get away with a much smaller office, or even no office at all.
The days of huge central offices are dead, and with them will go a lot of Pret's, the Starbuck's and the Greggs which have sprung up to service lunchtime breaks.
Totally agree. A lot of the London-based businesses that I know aren’t planning anything like full occupancy until 2021 and the fact they seem happy to do that indicates it’s is working well enough for the businesses as well as the staff.The days of huge central offices are dead, and with them will go a lot of Pret's, the Starbuck's and the Greggs which have sprung up to service lunchtime breaks.
I’m not sure what will happen to all of the excess of space as lease breaks start to happen. As you say it will have a huge affect on all of the support businesses which have sprung up and will cause new trends in housing markets way outside the big cities.
kingston12 said:
Condi said:
I don't think so. There is a seismic shift happening in work patterns and many people are finding it very beneficial to their quality of life. Our office is not planning to be at more than 30% occupancy until 2021, and by the time the current system has worked for 9 months it will be hard for the business to argue that it needs 100% of its staff sat at a desk all day long. Equally many businesses are looking at their offices wondering if that £500k/year is really good value or if they can get away with a much smaller office, or even no office at all.
The days of huge central offices are dead, and with them will go a lot of Pret's, the Starbuck's and the Greggs which have sprung up to service lunchtime breaks.
Totally agree. A lot of the London-based businesses that I know aren’t planning anything like full occupancy until 2021 and the fact they seem happy to do that indicates it’s is working well enough for the businesses as well as the staff.The days of huge central offices are dead, and with them will go a lot of Pret's, the Starbuck's and the Greggs which have sprung up to service lunchtime breaks.
I’m not sure what will happen to all of the excess of space as lease breaks start to happen. As you say it will have a huge affect on all of the support businesses which have sprung up and will cause new trends in housing markets way outside the big cities.
however a new can of worms starts to open - reimbursement for use of personal space for business use (does that mean that you home office needs to pay business rates?), fractional share of home utilities (again does this mean that business rates need to apply) etc etc etc. The gov is going to loose a tidy sum of revenue on lost business rates from large offices, loss of business rates from the reduced service industries (the aforementioned greggs and pret's) tax from reduced fuel from less commuting, etc etc. The coffer's aren't exactly overflowing after all the expense of Covid19, so i am sure they will be looking at any opportunities to claw back
XJSJohn said:
however a new can of worms starts to open - reimbursement for use of personal space for business use (does that mean that you home office needs to pay business rates?), fractional share of home utilities (again does this mean that business rates need to apply) etc etc etc. The gov is going to loose a tidy sum of revenue on lost business rates from large offices, loss of business rates from the reduced service industries (the aforementioned greggs and pret's) tax from reduced fuel from less commuting, etc etc. The coffer's aren't exactly overflowing after all the expense of Covid19, so i am sure they will be looking at any opportunities to claw back
Its not really a can of worms for the individual, there are tax free allowances for using part of your home for work purposes. Think its about £6/week the company can give you tax free (maybe they claim that back from the government?) which pays for some utilities and such like. From a society perspective its going to a lot harder. Everything around the world of work will change. Tax income will be lower from lower fuel use, and business rates will have to change dramatically if we want to have any form of high street left at all. Public transport will become much less viable at lower usage rates, and all the train and bus franchises are calculated on an expected usage rate. If the usage rates are lower than the train companies will have less profit to pass back to the government.
Groat said:
98elise said:
That looks nice. How much does it cost?https://www.rightmove.co.uk/overseas-property/prop...
The place we rented didn't have a that view though.,and was accessed via a single-track lane.
98elise said:
My father has been retired for about 10 years now. He has never been busier. When he worked he used to do a lot of community stuff in his spare time (councillor, first responder etc), so he now does even more of that.
My plan is to fill my days doing stuff I normally do at the weekend. That's after I finish all the DIY stuff that's been mounting up!
Must say I hear this a lot from retired people...."never busier". As with work, of course, there can be "busy good" and "busy bad".....My plan is to fill my days doing stuff I normally do at the weekend. That's after I finish all the DIY stuff that's been mounting up!
I honestly admire those who step up to be local councillor's, etc....I was talking with a neighbour who has plans with the Rotary Club, fund raising etc.....
.....but my first thought is to absolutely NOT leap into volunteering things: I can see it is very easy to hop aboard, much less so to step back.
I'd go along with your plan of filling the days doing those weekend things. Plus choosing the nice days to do things (eg, cycling, walking, gardening whilst sunny....indoor decorating, reading...or holidaying...during the wetter days!)
From earlier:
Hoofy said:
If you're considering bailing for the quieter life (but not ready to retire), consider this:
Happy to discuss further but I think it's pretty clear. I would change "need" to "want".
I love a good venn diagram, & I particularly like the shape of that one!!Happy to discuss further but I think it's pretty clear. I would change "need" to "want".
As soon as I can f
king can I'm selling my south-east family home and using the equity to buy a handful of rental properties for cash and live off the income. I shall be doing that living in rural France (and no, Brexit fans, you haven't fked that up for me because I'm a Maltese citizen, and I speak fluent French, spend a lot of time there already and know what I'm letting myself in for), with a second hand motorhome for trips around the continent when the mood takes me. 6 years till the children are out of school - that's the earliest I can press the big red "fk YOU" button, but realistically 6-10 years down the line. Would be much, much sooner if we'd never had bin lids.
Can not wait.
king can I'm selling my south-east family home and using the equity to buy a handful of rental properties for cash and live off the income. I shall be doing that living in rural France (and no, Brexit fans, you haven't fked that up for me because I'm a Maltese citizen, and I speak fluent French, spend a lot of time there already and know what I'm letting myself in for), with a second hand motorhome for trips around the continent when the mood takes me. 6 years till the children are out of school - that's the earliest I can press the big red "fk YOU" button, but realistically 6-10 years down the line. Would be much, much sooner if we'd never had bin lids.Can not wait.
kingston12 said:
Jasey_ said:
In my early 20s I was working in London "enjoying" the commute from Teddington to Westminster.
We got a 6 week job in Aberdeen and I volunteered to take it on.
2 years later and still on the job the client offered me a permanent job that essentially meant talking a 50% pay cut.
took it and have never looked back.
Sold my 2 bed mid terrace house in Teddington and bought a 4 bedroom detached new build in Banchory for pretty much the same money.
[url]
v
When I had to make the decision it basically came down to working in London is a young person's game - I wouldn't want to be doing it after I was into my 30s - And that was 30 years ago - pretty sure it hasn't improved !
That is a great result.We got a 6 week job in Aberdeen and I volunteered to take it on.
2 years later and still on the job the client offered me a permanent job that essentially meant talking a 50% pay cut.
took it and have never looked back.
Sold my 2 bed mid terrace house in Teddington and bought a 4 bedroom detached new build in Banchory for pretty much the same money.
[url]v
When I had to make the decision it basically came down to working in London is a young person's game - I wouldn't want to be doing it after I was into my 30s - And that was 30 years ago - pretty sure it hasn't improved !
Edited by Jasey_ on Tuesday 7th July 09:43
The only thing that would have made it better would be to have kept the Teddington house and let it earn you a lot of free money to fund your retirement. I guess that wasn’t as easy or fashionable an option as it is now.
Wish I had bought a house in London in the 1990's
Condi said:
Loads of people will be looking to take their London salaries and move further out into a bigger place. If you only have to be in the office 2 days a week then a longer commute is more acceptable than if you were doing it every day, and costs are lower overall. Given as within the city itself 1hr commutes are not uncommon, 1.5 hrs 2 days a week is much less time overall sat on a train. For what you can buy in the capital, go to Oxforshire, Hampshire, Sussex etc and you get heaps more for the same money.
But the prudent forward thinker will be factoring in a significant reduction in the salary premium for "working in the big city" once you don't actually work in the big city any more. Maybe not immediately, but within a couple of years, when the new WFH hires are earning 75% of your salary, you're going to become increasingly vulnerable.If you move to Basingstoke and work from there, that's what you'll be worth. Because the market will be awash with new graduates willing to live in Hammersmith and work in Broadgate.
BobSaunders said:
Whilst they might be looking, the sensible will wait. Whilst the world may have been turned on its head there is all possibility that it could re-right itself next year and people will be back in the office 4-5 days a week with appropriate controls and checks and balances.
I very much doubt that will be the norm.evoraboy12 said:
BobSaunders said:
Whilst they might be looking, the sensible will wait. Whilst the world may have been turned on its head there is all possibility that it could re-right itself next year and people will be back in the office 4-5 days a week with appropriate controls and checks and balances.
I very much doubt that will be the norm.Perhaps there is a chance that we’ll snap back towards the old norm for a while and then drift again towards more WFH.
That makes sense for the way they manage the jobless totals. Pret have started to realise that they don’t need to be on every street corner in London because of lower footfall. If the remaining footfall dwindles more slowly, those places will lose staff more slowly and that seems to be the government’s plan at the moment.
That gives them more time to create jobs elsewhere, but I can’t see where they are coming from at the moment.
kingston12 said:
The guidance from government seems to be changing already though, with Boris’ ‘Get back to the office’ headlines.
Perhaps there is a chance that we’ll snap back towards the old norm for a while and then drift again towards more WFH.
That makes sense for the way they manage the jobless totals. Pret have started to realise that they don’t need to be on every street corner in London because of lower footfall. If the remaining footfall dwindles more slowly, those places will lose staff more slowly and that seems to be the government’s plan at the moment.
That gives them more time to create jobs elsewhere, but I can’t see where they are coming from at the moment.
The guidance might be changing but a number of MD's and senior execs I have spoken to are leaning towards 2/3 days at the office, if any, rather than 4/5 days being the norm.Perhaps there is a chance that we’ll snap back towards the old norm for a while and then drift again towards more WFH.
That makes sense for the way they manage the jobless totals. Pret have started to realise that they don’t need to be on every street corner in London because of lower footfall. If the remaining footfall dwindles more slowly, those places will lose staff more slowly and that seems to be the government’s plan at the moment.
That gives them more time to create jobs elsewhere, but I can’t see where they are coming from at the moment.
Just to provide a slightly different perspective on the original post / question.
I recently left IB / IM to join a FinTech. Even before COVID-19 I saw a DRASTIC change in lifestyle.
So much more time to spend with family, be a good husband, walk dog, sleep, exercise.
When all is said and done; working significantly less hours, my P60 will probably still be the same as when I was an MD in FS.
Can only recommend it (unless you love corporate politics, in which case you should stay where you are, and never leave to poison this well!!)
I recently left IB / IM to join a FinTech. Even before COVID-19 I saw a DRASTIC change in lifestyle.
So much more time to spend with family, be a good husband, walk dog, sleep, exercise.
When all is said and done; working significantly less hours, my P60 will probably still be the same as when I was an MD in FS.
Can only recommend it (unless you love corporate politics, in which case you should stay where you are, and never leave to poison this well!!)
kingston12 said:
The guidance from government seems to be changing already though, with Boris’ ‘Get back to the office’ headlines.
Perhaps there is a chance that we’ll snap back towards the old norm for a while and then drift again towards more WFH.
Nope, not now. Guidance or no guidance, staff don't want to do it and will fight to keep some WFH days. Businesses are going to have to prove why they can't do that, given as it's worked for the last 6 months. Perhaps there is a chance that we’ll snap back towards the old norm for a while and then drift again towards more WFH.
More flexibility in working arrangements has been coming for a while anyway, all Covid has done is bring that forward 10 years and prove that a significant number of jobs can be done from home, including many which were never thought possible.
XJSJohn said:
Family business that i inherited so it sort of came before the expat'ing and the IT'ing as i can remember working on the estate as a teenager in the summers.
definite pro's and cons to commercial.
you generally get tenants in for longer periods, 10 year leases being the norm, and they are usually fully maintaining leases so once someone is in, everything is their problem. Once a tenant is in, its very hands off, just have to send a quarterly invoice so great to deal with from overseas.
However, it's expensive to get a tenant in, last unit cost me 3.1k in agents fees and 3.6k in solicitors fees, and when a unit is empty you are liable for rates and maintenance.
Having said all that, i find them much easier all round to manage than residential property.
Thanks, will do some more research. definite pro's and cons to commercial.
you generally get tenants in for longer periods, 10 year leases being the norm, and they are usually fully maintaining leases so once someone is in, everything is their problem. Once a tenant is in, its very hands off, just have to send a quarterly invoice so great to deal with from overseas.
However, it's expensive to get a tenant in, last unit cost me 3.1k in agents fees and 3.6k in solicitors fees, and when a unit is empty you are liable for rates and maintenance.
Having said all that, i find them much easier all round to manage than residential property.
Condi said:
Nope, not now. Guidance or no guidance, staff don't want to do it and will fight to keep some WFH days. Businesses are going to have to prove why they can't do that, given as it's worked for the last 6 months.
More flexibility in working arrangements has been coming for a while anyway, all Covid has done is bring that forward 10 years and prove that a significant number of jobs can be done from home, including many which were never thought possible.
Yep, it’s going to be an interesting few months/years.More flexibility in working arrangements has been coming for a while anyway, all Covid has done is bring that forward 10 years and prove that a significant number of jobs can be done from home, including many which were never thought possible.
I know of a couple of companies where the senior management are desperate to get as many back into the office as soon as possible. In that type of case, the guidance might be all they need to start doing so.
The workers might not like it and will definitely win out in the end, but not sure too many people will risk being too argumentative whilst jobs are scarce.
I appreciate this probably isn’t typical because increased WFH benefits both employer and employee for a lot of roles.
As you say, the commercial landlords, Pret-type places and public transport operators have got to deal with years worth of progress at once.
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