Government borrowing

[x5x3]

Clive Milk said:

x5x3 said:

BlackG7R said:

I remember the Tories in the run up to the election of 2010 saying they were very worried about the debt levels Labour had run up, because eventually all the national income could be eaten up just making interest payments, leaving nothing to actually "run the country"

Our finances and debt levels were farcical then following the financial crisis, but now it's just off the scale ridiculous. This is a debt that cannot be repaid, so it will not be repaid. I'm guessing it will end with massive inflation, or default, or both.

debt is an illusion

Just out of interest, do you personally have any illusionary debt, and do you pay any illusionary interest on it?

Yes or no?

for the record I have no debt but neither do the UK government, others may do but every nation that issues their own currency do not

[Clive Milk]

x5x3 said:

Clive Milk said:

x5x3 said:

BlackG7R said:

I remember the Tories in the run up to the election of 2010 saying they were very worried about the debt levels Labour had run up, because eventually all the national income could be eaten up just making interest payments, leaving nothing to actually "run the country"

Our finances and debt levels were farcical then following the financial crisis, but now it's just off the scale ridiculous. This is a debt that cannot be repaid, so it will not be repaid. I'm guessing it will end with massive inflation, or default, or both.

debt is an illusion

Just out of interest, do you personally have any illusionary debt, and do you pay any illusionary interest on it?

Yes or no?

for the record I have no debt but neither do the UK government, others may do but every nation that issues their own currency do not

Not even a mortgage ?

Talking about countries, see how Argentina is struggling not paying its non-debt ....

They don't seem to be able to pay off this none debt to the financiers and the IMF by printing more more pesos at home unsurprisingly. They have massive inflation currently due to that and exports that cannot be done as the farmers are complaining they are not being paid in dollars.

https://en.mercopress.com/2021/03/04/argentina-and...



Thoughts?

[x5x3]

Clive Milk said:

Not even a mortgage ?

Talking about countries, see how Argentina is struggling not paying its non-debt ....

They don't seem to be able to pay off this none debt to the financiers and the IMF by printing more more pesos at home unsurprisingly. They have massive inflation currently due to that and exports that cannot be done as the farmers are complaining they are not being paid in dollars.

https://en.mercopress.com/2021/03/04/argentina-and...



Thoughts?

it is late now but pretty sure they are pegged to USD so not their own debt

[Clive Milk]

x5x3 said:

Clive Milk said:

Not even a mortgage ?

Talking about countries, see how Argentina is struggling not paying its non-debt ....

They don't seem to be able to pay off this none debt to the financiers and the IMF by printing more more pesos at home unsurprisingly. They have massive inflation currently due to that and exports that cannot be done as the farmers are complaining they are not being paid in dollars.

https://en.mercopress.com/2021/03/04/argentina-and...



Thoughts?

it is late now but pretty sure they are pegged to USD so not their own debt

That's the lamest one liner ever and answers nothing. You are better off reading some MMT theory

Or pop down to Argentina and sort out their imaginary debt and perhaps advise on the Falklands to boot whilst you are at it.

[x5x3]

Clive Milk said:

x5x3 said:

Clive Milk said:

Not even a mortgage ?

Talking about countries, see how Argentina is struggling not paying its non-debt ....

They don't seem to be able to pay off this none debt to the financiers and the IMF by printing more more pesos at home unsurprisingly. They have massive inflation currently due to that and exports that cannot be done as the farmers are complaining they are not being paid in dollars.

https://en.mercopress.com/2021/03/04/argentina-and...



Thoughts?

it is late now but pretty sure they are pegged to USD so not their own debt

That's the lamest one liner ever and answers nothing. You are better off reading some MMT theory

Or pop down to Argentina and sort out their imaginary debt and perhaps advise on the Falklands to boot whilst you are at it.

have your fun, but do read up on it, and I'll bookmark this for 5 or 10 years, if the UK or US have defaulted then I will buy you a pint.

[Clive Milk]

x5x3 said:

Clive Milk said:

x5x3 said:

Clive Milk said:

Not even a mortgage ?

Talking about countries, see how Argentina is struggling not paying its non-debt ....

They don't seem to be able to pay off this none debt to the financiers and the IMF by printing more more pesos at home unsurprisingly. They have massive inflation currently due to that and exports that cannot be done as the farmers are complaining they are not being paid in dollars.

https://en.mercopress.com/2021/03/04/argentina-and...



Thoughts?

it is late now but pretty sure they are pegged to USD so not their own debt

That's the lamest one liner ever and answers nothing. You are better off reading some MMT theory

Or pop down to Argentina and sort out their imaginary debt and perhaps advise on the Falklands to boot whilst you are at it.

have your fun, but do read up on it, and I'll bookmark this for 5 or 10 years, if the UK or US have defaulted then I will buy you a pint.

That's irrelevant to your claim that countries that have their own currency do not have debt. I have just shown it with Argentina and you came out with some hogwash about being tied to the dollar?

Your argument of government debt is not an illusion as I have shown, it has real effects here and now.

Things to think about now rather than 5 to 10 years ?

[Scootersp]

PushedDover said:

Any decent reads to learn up on the whole system and principles - Bonds, gilts etc etc?

Not a monster read, but also more than a glossary sheet

If you like watching stuff this series is I think good..........not short though!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyV0OfU3-FU

[x5x3]

Clive Milk said:

x5x3 said:

Clive Milk said:

x5x3 said:

Clive Milk said:

Not even a mortgage ?

Talking about countries, see how Argentina is struggling not paying its non-debt ....

They don't seem to be able to pay off this none debt to the financiers and the IMF by printing more more pesos at home unsurprisingly. They have massive inflation currently due to that and exports that cannot be done as the farmers are complaining they are not being paid in dollars.

https://en.mercopress.com/2021/03/04/argentina-and...



Thoughts?

still quite sure they do not own their currency - it is pegged to USD, please take some time out and read about the implications of this.

it is late now but pretty sure they are pegged to USD so not their own debt

That's the lamest one liner ever and answers nothing. You are better off reading some MMT theory

Or pop down to Argentina and sort out their imaginary debt and perhaps advise on the Falklands to boot whilst you are at it.

have your fun, but do read up on it, and I'll bookmark this for 5 or 10 years, if the UK or US have defaulted then I will buy you a pint.

That's irrelevant to your claim that countries that have their own currency do not have debt. I have just shown it with Argentina and you came out with some hogwash about being tied to the dollar?

Your argument of government debt is not an illusion as I have shown, it has real effects here and now.

Things to think about now rather than 5 to 10 years ?

[Clive Milk]

x5x3 said:

Clive Milk said:

x5x3 said:

Clive Milk said:

x5x3 said:

Clive Milk said:

Not even a mortgage ?

Talking about countries, see how Argentina is struggling not paying its non-debt ....

They don't seem to be able to pay off this none debt to the financiers and the IMF by printing more more pesos at home unsurprisingly. They have massive inflation currently due to that and exports that cannot be done as the farmers are complaining they are not being paid in dollars.

https://en.mercopress.com/2021/03/04/argentina-and...



Thoughts?

still quite sure they do not own their currency - it is pegged to USD, please take some time out and read about the implications of this.

it is late now but pretty sure they are pegged to USD so not their own debt

That's the lamest one liner ever and answers nothing. You are better off reading some MMT theory

Or pop down to Argentina and sort out their imaginary debt and perhaps advise on the Falklands to boot whilst you are at it.

have your fun, but do read up on it, and I'll bookmark this for 5 or 10 years, if the UK or US have defaulted then I will buy you a pint.

That's irrelevant to your claim that countries that have their own currency do not have debt. I have just shown it with Argentina and you came out with some hogwash about being tied to the dollar?

Your argument of government debt is not an illusion as I have shown, it has real effects here and now.

Things to think about now rather than 5 to 10 years ?

While you are trying to work out your formatting, i take dislike to your attitude that me and another person have to "read up" on matters suggesting we need to get educated. That's a poor form of argument on a forum, where it should be points put across, not a poorly disguised indication we might be a bit thick ....

Edited by Clive Milk on Friday 5th March 00:50

[cheddar]

Mike Maloney and The Keiser Report are two of the most reliable and readily available channels to watch for a solid insight into the current financial world turmoil.

In brief, brace yourself, we're headed for a stshow.

[chris7676]

"It can only get better" - Blair & Brown. 1997.
"The only way is up, babeee" - Darth Jonhson & Sunak. 2020.

And Greenspan and their successors and global imitators in the central banking circles - not to be underestimated to say the least.

This is a global trend, so we are not alone, just manage to screw ourselves a bit more than others (more debt, more lockdown nonsense and other supply descrtruction, brexits generated beauroccracy, etc)

[Mr Whippy]

chris7676 said:

"It can only get better" - Blair & Brown. 1997.
"The only way is up, babeee" - Darth Jonhson & Sunak. 2020.

And Greenspan and their successors and global imitators in the central banking circles - not to be underestimated to say the least.

This is a global trend, so we are not alone, just manage to screw ourselves a bit more than others (more debt, more lockdown nonsense and other supply descrtruction, brexits generated beauroccracy, etc)

To be fair we've exported a lot of our jobs to China, and then it'll be Africa, and then the next cheapest place.

While you export all your jobs and live off debt fuelled GDP then things can carry on, until your currency is at parity with the countries you exported your jobs to, and then they'll start coming home again.

This won't end until we're all at a homogeneous level of wealth. For the rich westerners that means a big drop in wealth for the average person. And you all keep voting for it and trusting these politicians

[NuckyThompson]

stichill99 said:

I watched a youtube video last night with a forecaster warning that after the US QE package that their debt will be heading for 30 trillion. Many many times what the bank bailout was.He said that if interest rates went to their historic average of 5% USA would be bankrupt. So I guess it's no bank interest for the next 25 years then?

I’m wondering if China now own a lot of American debt now then too? Effectively helping an aim of becoming ‘the’ superpower without having to do much

[Simpo Two]

chris7676 said:

brexits generated beauroccracy, etc

You're forgetting the 40+ years of rules regs and paperwork Brussels forced on us.

[bogie]

NuckyThompson said:

stichill99 said:

I watched a youtube video last night with a forecaster warning that after the US QE package that their debt will be heading for 30 trillion. Many many times what the bank bailout was.He said that if interest rates went to their historic average of 5% USA would be bankrupt. So I guess it's no bank interest for the next 25 years then?

I’m wondering if China now own a lot of American debt now then too? Effectively helping an aim of becoming ‘the’ superpower without having to do much

China have owned a lot of US debt for many years....over a trillion according to some sources https://qz.com/1905559/how-much-us-debt-does-china...

[Simpo Two]

bogie said:

China have owned a lot of US debt for many years....over a trillion according to some sources https://qz.com/1905559/how-much-us-debt-does-china...

It's a good trick - hoover all the cash out of the West, then lend it back to them. Win win to Beijing. I always thought the West would legislate itself to a standstill.

[Condi]

Mr Whippy said:

To be fair we've exported a lot of our jobs to China, and then it'll be Africa, and then the next cheapest place.

While you export all your jobs and live off debt fuelled GDP then things can carry on, until your currency is at parity with the countries you exported your jobs to, and then they'll start coming home again.

This won't end until we're all at a homogeneous level of wealth. For the rich westerners that means a big drop in wealth for the average person. And you all keep voting for it and trusting these politicians

That is the obvious conclusion. You can only remain wealthy for so long when people and goods can move from one side of the world to the other in less than 24 hours, and ideas can move in miliseconds.

What sets up apart from China, South Africa or Haiti? Levels of investment and infrastructure, yes. Education, yes. Access to trading partners, maybe. Non of those are unsurmountable though, and will change with time as our money from here in the UK is spent on goods from the Far East. We have forgotten that business and economies are always in competition with each other. We have been "winning" that competition and become complacent about our position, taking our eye off our rivals. Rivals who, as it turns out, have been stealing our IP and manufacturing what we used to make, only cheaper. It will end badly for us.

[BlackG7R]

x5x3 said:

BlackG7R said:

I remember the Tories in the run up to the election of 2010 saying they were very worried about the debt levels Labour had run up, because eventually all the national income could be eaten up just making interest payments, leaving nothing to actually "run the country"

Our finances and debt levels were farcical then following the financial crisis, but now it's just off the scale ridiculous. This is a debt that cannot be repaid, so it will not be repaid. I'm guessing it will end with massive inflation, or default, or both.

debt is an illusion - UK issues GBP so it does not matter how much they print or owe, suggest you read some MMT theory.

Seems to me MMT theory is just that, a theory, and quite a dangerous experiment.

I guess only time will tell if it works or not.

But there seem to be quite a lot of fairly sensible and grounded people who think it will end in disaster.

[x5x3]

BlackG7R said:

x5x3 said:

BlackG7R said:

I remember the Tories in the run up to the election of 2010 saying they were very worried about the debt levels Labour had run up, because eventually all the national income could be eaten up just making interest payments, leaving nothing to actually "run the country"

Our finances and debt levels were farcical then following the financial crisis, but now it's just off the scale ridiculous. This is a debt that cannot be repaid, so it will not be repaid. I'm guessing it will end with massive inflation, or default, or both.

debt is an illusion - UK issues GBP so it does not matter how much they print or owe, suggest you read some MMT theory.

Seems to me MMT theory is just that, a theory, and quite a dangerous experiment.

I guess only time will tell if it works or not.

But there seem to be quite a lot of fairly sensible and grounded people who think it will end in disaster.

how do you define a theory, or to redefine that, what does a theory become not a theory?

[BlackG7R]

x5x3 said:

how do you define a theory, or to redefine that, what does a theory become not a theory?

When it's been put into practise, and proven to work or not work.

Which I don't think it has yet.

I'm not saying it won't work, (although that is my feeling)

I'm saying we don't know yet, and it seems to be quite a dangerous thing to "try out" as it could be absolutely disastrous if it doesn't.