Crypto Currency Thread (Vol.2)

[Condi]

g4ry13 said:

Ultimately, most people will want what they are told to want.

Indeed, and when people start moving money around in a way which the government cannot see, and more importantly cannot ensure that tax is being paid on, then they will be told to want something other than bitcoin...

[wisbech]

RichTT said:

Middlemen are entirely unnecessary in a digital world.

That doesn't jibe with my experience and observations. "Platforms" (aka middlemen) are the most powerful/ valuable. Uber, Amazon, Facebook, Expedia, AirBnB, App stores, DoorDash etc.

If anything middlemen are more necessary in a digital world, because the exponential increase in data & sources needs agglomerating and filtering. Most people don't have time or skill to collect required data from people who are looking to borrow money for a mortgage to understand if it is an acceptable risk say. But you could have a platform collecting that data, filtering it and then offering to people wanting to make loans.

Heck - just look at the car marketplace on Pistonheads. It is a middleman model.

Edited by wisbech on Saturday 14th May 02:08

[rodericb]

Al Gorithum said:

RichTT said:

I honestly don't care whether any of you buy bitcoin or gamble on shtcoins or take any notice at all.

There is a financial revolution happening in countries around the world with failing economies that offers them a lifeline and an opportunity for global financial inclusion and it's obvious that most of you haven't done any reading beyond tabloid headlines decrying the risks of investing in shibu doge elon coin.

To quote "Those who understand Bitcoin, buy it. Those who don't, talk about it." Saylor.

I'm out.

Each to their own, but to me they stink like a Ponzi.

I wouldn't say that Bitcoin itself is a Ponzi scheme as its premise is not to take incoming investments into the scheme by people new to it and distribute it to those already in the scheme as "returns". It's a "thing" which, through accident or design, is restricted in scope and where its restricted scope has found it a purpose - that purpose being a store of value in the eyes of those holding it. I tend to think of it as the one-percenter coin as it has evolved from computer science experiment to handy tool for capitalists to dodge government intervention into their wealth. It's barely any more relevant to anything than Ming dynasty vases, faberge eggs, Rembrandt paintings, Pokemon cards or property in Second Life, but to those who see the value in then great (for them).

Obviously, as it was a new concept, it had a period where it needed to grow acceptance, especially as it was completely unbacked. People love to conflate Bitcoin and its process of acceptance and resultant increase in value with all the st which people think of to exploit the concept (like stable coins, investment funds investing in Bitcoin on your behalf and even other crypto currencies all piling in to hook some suckers!). You can get fked over just as comprehensively in any other "normal" investment if you don't know what you're doing - buying a rusty old MR2 which you thought was a Ferrari 355, the London Bridge for ten grand from a guy on the street, EFT's, FX....

After all that, I don't own any crypto currency and never have. A mate lost something like $USD600k in this USDT Luna thing this week. There are scams everywhere. Why people think that crypto has all the scams and anything government-based doesn't just tells me that they are pretty naive and that the itching sensation you might feel but just ignore is The Establishment "bending you over" all day, every day. You've been conditioned to ignore it.

[gregs656]

I don’t think anyone thinks money generally is scam free.

I read one that people who think they are immune to advertising are most susceptible to advertising. I’m not sure if that is entirely accurate but I do think there is something to that, and it explains the prevalence of crypto scams. People think they have been given the keys to the kingdom, this is the next big thing, cast iron win… so they dive in with both feet and it all goes horribly wrong. Its hubris.

[Gweeds]

You missed out environmentally catastrophic.

[r3g]

RichTT: nobody cares about utility or store of wealth arguments. All they care about is the price going up so they can buy lambos and retire.

It's not an investment. It's gambling. You have no clue whether it'll go up or down 40% from one minute to the next. That is decided by the multi-billion dollar hedge funds etc whom you and every other normie has no control over.

Edited by r3g on Saturday 14th May 07:15

[Defcon5]

Do people really think hiding money from the government is a good thing?

If the government couldn’t collect any tax, who pays for the bin men, doctors, fire brigade, border force etc.

Or do people just want their money hidden, and everyone else can pay for all these things

[tighnamara]

RichTT, I have zero clue about bitcoin / crypto currency, you keep mentioning “stable currency”, for me anything will fluctuate move as a “currency” now and in the future based on what’s happening in the world. (Possibly naive view but it’s what I see)

I know personally and read of these people who are investing in Bitcoin Cryoto, now at no point have I seen anyone investing for the good of the world economy and the end goal being a stable currency.

All are looking at making money and investing for this reason only, what’s going to happen when bitcoin “sells out”, I presume there is a limit, how is the value going to be controlled, surely if the aim is to have “a stable currency” the only winner will be those investing early.

I see your passion for it and it may be skewed slightly in that really you want it to progress to make money nothing to do with a stable currency.

I and most likely 95% of the population, don’t understand it and have the fear of god of investing in it,I can’t see how it would ever be a stable currency.

As I said I am naive on the subject hence the reason I wouldn’t even think of investing in something so validation that some expect to become stable.

Totally confused ......

[tighnamara]

RichTT, I have zero clue about bitcoin / crypto currency, you keep mentioning “stable currency”, for me anything will fluctuate move as a “currency” now and in the future based on what’s happening in the world. (Possibly naive view but it’s what I see)

I know personally and read of these people who are investing in Bitcoin Cryoto, now at no point have I seen anyone investing for the good of the world economy and the end goal being a stable currency.

All are looking at making money and investing for this reason only, what’s going to happen when bitcoin “sells out”, I presume there is a limit, how is the value going to be controlled, surely if the aim is to have “a stable currency” the only winner will be those investing early.

I see your passion for it and it may be skewed slightly in that really you want it to progress to make money nothing to do with a stable currency.

I and most likely 95% of the population, don’t understand it and have the fear of god of investing in it,I can’t see how it would ever be a stable currency.

As I said I am naive on the subject hence the reason I wouldn’t even think of investing in something so validation that some expect to become stable.

Totally confused ......

Edited by tighnamara on Saturday 14th May 09:47

[GT3Manthey]

Total novice here so apologies in advance but , does anyone know anything about Himalaya Exchange ?

Pal of mine invested from the outset at almost zero as he’s connected to the company and now the ‘coin’ is trading at 44.

He can sell a small amount each month and relative to what’s going on elsewhere the coin seems stable .

Question is , will this end up being another coin base situation ?

Tks in advance and once again I’m totally new to this !

[GT03ROB]

RichTT said:

Right. A lot of you seem to be confused about what bitcoin and the bitcoin network is.

- Largest computing network on Earth
- Fully decentralized
- Algorithmically secure

If someone is going to build on a financial network with global reach that is efficient, cheap and secure, they should be choosing the Bitcoin network.

- It's too slow to be a transactional network it only does 3 tps, Visa does 20,000 tps

Please do some reading into the Lightning Network built on Bitcoin: https://1ml.com/

Short VISA, long Strike and Cashapp and all the other apps that utilise the bitcoin network to perform instant, cheap, secure transfers, globally using Lightning network. These can be Bitcoin transfer OR virtual currency transfers (ie digital representations of USD / GBP / EUR etc). Virtually eliminating the requirement for Western Union, Moneygram, or any of the other predatory international retail payment networks.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/ninabambysheva/2022/0...

Some of the biggest and smartest minds in global networking are dedicating their careers to working on this now.

- Most people just want to be able to get on with their lives and buy stuff with a reasonably stable currency don't they?

WE have the luxury of a stable currency, have a look around the world at the level of inflation and how they are collapsing one by one. Look where they are turning to for stability. Adoption of Bitcoin worldwide is being driven by the countries with failing economies and corruption.

https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/WEO/Issues/202...

Argentina is at the forefront of the Bitcoin revolution, with high user and business acceptance making it one of the countries with the highest levels of cryptocurrency adoption. Inflation is running at over 50% in the third largest economy in Latin America and the fourth largest by population, where over 40% of people live in poverty. Access to financial tools and services like Strike offers Argentinians an opportunity to preserve their wealth amidst the economic turmoil and create a Bitcoin economy that generates value for the entire community. For example, in towns like San Martin de Los Andes, there are already hundreds of Bitcoin and Lightning-enabled merchants and Bitcoin ATMs, where over 60% of its residents claim to be familiar with cryptocurrencies and 40% of businesses accept bitcoin. Residents of San Martin de Los Andes continue to benefit from opting out of the legacy payment rails where the card networks and traditional banks charge merchants more than 5% for every transaction.

- but most people don't care about any of this provided they wake up tomorrow and things are more or less the same as they are today.

WE have that luxury, billions do not.

- Bitcoin is too volatile to give the people what they want here IMO.

In the UK, yes, elsewhere. Not so much. "But that doesn't affect me in the UK or EU" says everyone. Well funnily enough, being a global economy, what happens in places like Sri Lanka and Turkey and Argentina does affect us, greatly, perhaps not in the short term, but damn well in the long run.

- There is no revolution here on a grass roots level, people want the same thing it is just being packaged in a different way and no one cares about that packaging until it goes wrong.

El Salvador - Legal Tender
Central African Republic - Legal Tender and primary currency
Lugano, Switzerland - Legal Tender
Tonga, 2022 - Will be Legal Tender

Panama, Paraguay, Guatemala and Honduras are all candidates for legal tender laws this year. How many countries in Africa beholden to the the XAF will now be looking at the Central African Republic as an example?

Conclusion:

It's a digital asset you can self custody in your head
It's tradable in the most liquid market on earth
The bitcoin network will be the payment rail for a global economy utilising the Lightning network
it's the native digital asset for the most powerful and secure computing network on earth
No counter party risk
It's virtual money that you can send anywhere worldwide instantly for almost nothing
It's a GLOBAL MACRO inflation hedge
It's enabling financial inclusion and stability for millions worldwide
It's equality of opportunity not equality of outcome

If you want to look at it from purely an investment, then it's an asymmetric bet on where the worlds money is headed to for stability. Global M2 money supply somewhere between $120-140Trillion. Bitcoin market cap is ±0.5% of global M2 money supply. As an investment risk you are betting that it reduces from 0.5% of global M2 money supply vs takes some more of the remaining ±95.5%. That is a hugely asymmetric investment opportunity and given the growth curve of network effect technologies I wouldn't be fading putting even just 1% of your net worth into it.

To be honest it's hardly surprising many of are confused if thats an explanation of it. I really wish I knew what "It's a digital asset you can self custody in your head" or " The bitcoin network will be the payment rail for a global economy utilising the Lightning network" even means.

I would love to understand what this crypto stuff is all about, but I've yet to read or see anything that can explain in simple terms I can relate to what it is all about.

[Gweeds]

RichTT said:

Uses less power than all the clothes dryers in the US.

Has over 56% renewable energy supplies, a higher percentage than almost any other industry.

Uses wasted electricity

Uses flare gas that would otherwise be discharged into the atmosphere

Bitcoin miners are financially incentivized to utilize cheap and stranded energy sources.

Overall uses 0.1% of the worlds global energy supply.

Which press release did that come from.

[RichTT]

Defcon5 said:

Do people really think hiding money from the government is a good thing?

If the government couldn’t collect any tax, who pays for the bin men, doctors, fire brigade, border force etc.

Or do people just want their money hidden, and everyone else can pay for all these things

You can't hide transactions on an immutable ledger. Does anyone actually think before posting.

An immutable decentralised ledger increases transparency, that's the whole point. You can trace every single transaction on the network from inception to what happened in the last second. Publicly.

[xeny]

RichTT said:

Uses wasted electricity

Do you mean if people stopped mining crypto there would be surplus electricity leaking out of the wall sockets all over the floor, or does it just use the electrons that are about to go past their sell by date?

[Defcon5]

RichTT said:

Defcon5 said:

Do people really think hiding money from the government is a good thing?

If the government couldn’t collect any tax, who pays for the bin men, doctors, fire brigade, border force etc.

Or do people just want their money hidden, and everyone else can pay for all these things

You can't hide transactions on an immutable ledger. Does anyone actually think before posting.

An immutable decentralised ledger increases transparency, that's the whole point. You can trace every single transaction on the network from inception to what happened in the last second. Publicly.

You said that traceability of money supply was a bad thing though?

[GT03ROB]

RichTT said:

Uses less power than all the clothes dryers in the US.

Has over 56% renewable energy supplies, a higher percentage than almost any other industry.

Uses wasted electricity

Uses flare gas that would otherwise be discharged into the atmosphere

Bitcoin miners are financially incentivized to utilize cheap and stranded energy sources.

Overall uses 0.1% of the worlds global energy supply.

Really.....

...it's been causing major issues with the power supplies over here....

...most of that is complete nonsense.

[tertius]

GT3Manthey said:

Total novice here so apologies in advance but , does anyone know anything about Himalaya Exchange ?

Pal of mine invested from the outset at almost zero as he’s connected to the company and now the ‘coin’ is trading at 44.

He can sell a small amount each month and relative to what’s going on elsewhere the coin seems stable .

Question is , will this end up being another coin base situation ?

Tks in advance and once again I’m totally new to this !

Never heard it it but this article does not exactly inspire confidence: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-11-12...

I found the announcement thread on bitcointalk. It’s had 12 comments on it since it started in July 2021 of which only one was not from the OP.

[hotchy]

Defcon5 said:

Do people really think hiding money from the government is a good thing?

If the government couldn’t collect any tax, who pays for the bin men, doctors, fire brigade, border force etc.

Or do people just want their money hidden, and everyone else can pay for all these things

Depends. Once a rich mans divorce from the 21 year old supermodel is over, he can take his billions of bitcoin back out the network... sometimes hiding things is best.

Although I'm pretty sure they know a way around this by now..

Edited by hotchy on Saturday 14th May 08:55

[GT3Manthey]

tertius said:

Never heard it it but this article does not exactly inspire confidence: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-11-12...

I found the announcement thread on bitcointalk. It’s had 12 comments on it since it started in July 2021 of which only one was not from the OP.

Tks for this .

I’ve been tracking it over the last two weeks but as I said I don’t know too much about it .

My pal is only allowed to withdraw $10k a month although his holdings are ( at current values) worth supposed millions.

He has suggested he could get me involved but at current levels, and given what’s going on elsewhere, I’m not sold on the idea

[Blown2CV]

GT3Manthey said:

tertius said:

Never heard it it but this article does not exactly inspire confidence: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-11-12...

I found the announcement thread on bitcointalk. It’s had 12 comments on it since it started in July 2021 of which only one was not from the OP.

Tks for this .

I’ve been tracking it over the last two weeks but as I said I don’t know too much about it .

My pal is only allowed to withdraw $10k a month although his holdings are ( at current values) worth supposed millions.

He has suggested he could get me involved but at current levels, and given what’s going on elsewhere, I’m not sold on the idea

even not given what's going on elsewhere, you shouldn't be considering it.

The fundamental issue with the democratised/socialised/de-centralised whatever model, removing middle-men, is that the buyer needs to directly trust the seller. If the seller is cleverer at hiding crookedness than the buyer is at spotting crookedness, then this is the st that arises. There is no need for long term, repeat business or some kind of registration and regulation, so you can spin up a scam, execute it and disappear. Or, you could always plan a tried and tested scam and slap the word crypto in front of it. The volume of that st arising is what will kill crypto before it really gets going. Most people aren't very bright.