Crypto Currency Thread (Vol.2)
Discussion
dimots said:
. It will be an essential tool in managing our resources
Bitcoin mining is currently using about 13GW according to Cambridge Uni, about 40% of the current GB national demand. If you look at their map of where mining is taking place, you can see that the areas of highest mining are in China and the USA, with the most European mining done in German. China has recently announced plans to mine a further 10% coal than it did last year due to high gas costs, while America is still reliant on fossil fuels for it's electricity generation. Germany generates about 25% of it's electricity from coal. These 3 countries account for over 60% of the hashes.
https://ccaf.io/cbeci/mining_map
The argument that "Bitcoin is an essential tool in managing our resources" is entirely fanciful, and certainly doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Your recent posts have come across more as someone who is getting detached from reality than someone who is objectively looking at the issues and pragmatic solutions. Capitalism will out-live you, and out-live your children.
Edited by Condi on Wednesday 25th May 10:27
Also the line trotted out is that Bitcoin uses a lot of green energy, however if there was no Bitcoin this green energy could have been used on other essential uses, reducing the overall energy need?
So it comes down to whether you see Bitcoin as essential and/or it's usage can get to a point where its energy use is less than what it may replace (eg some make comparisons to the swift system etc and it's energy usage) which right now seems a bit of a reach......but who knows, one day......
So it comes down to whether you see Bitcoin as essential and/or it's usage can get to a point where its energy use is less than what it may replace (eg some make comparisons to the swift system etc and it's energy usage) which right now seems a bit of a reach......but who knows, one day......
Condi said:
Bitcoin mining is currently using about 13GW according to Cambridge Uni, about 40% of the current GB national demand. If you look at their map of where mining is taking place, you can see that the areas of highest mining are in China and the USA, with the most European mining done in German.
China has recently announced plans to mine a further 10% coal than it did last year due to high gas costs, while America is still reliant on fossil fuels for it's electricity generation. Germany generates about 25% of it's electricity from coal. These 3 countries account for over 60% of the hashes.
https://ccaf.io/cbeci/mining_map
The argument that "Bitcoin is an essential tool in managing our resources" is entirely fanciful, and certainly doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Your recent posts have come across more as someone who is getting detached from reality than someone who is objectively looking at the issues and pragmatic solutions. Capitalism will out-live you, and out-live your children.
Energy usage is high because there is a race to mine new blocks while they are profitable. We have covered this previously. All the newspaper headlines and stuff you see about 'each btc transactions costs $1000' are bullsChina has recently announced plans to mine a further 10% coal than it did last year due to high gas costs, while America is still reliant on fossil fuels for it's electricity generation. Germany generates about 25% of it's electricity from coal. These 3 countries account for over 60% of the hashes.
https://ccaf.io/cbeci/mining_map
The argument that "Bitcoin is an essential tool in managing our resources" is entirely fanciful, and certainly doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Your recent posts have come across more as someone who is getting detached from reality than someone who is objectively looking at the issues and pragmatic solutions. Capitalism will out-live you, and out-live your children.
Edited by Condi on Wednesday 25th May 10:27
t because the cost is to mine a block not to process a transaction. The charts that Cambridge share are guesstimates. The network is building and growing. Bitcoin is not using energy, miners are using the energy to mine blocks to get the bitcoin reward. When all the blocks are mined, miners do not receive bitcoin rewards, they receive transaction fees. I'm sure you can see that this will halt the gold rush and usher in a new era of efficiency driven block production where most transactions/least blocks is the economic model.Each to their own. I'm not detached from reality, I spend most of my time in it. This is the crypto thread...other threads exist.
Condi said:
Bitcoin mining is currently using about 13GW according to Cambridge Uni, about 40% of the current GB national demand. If you look at their map of where mining is taking place, you can see that the areas of highest mining are in China and the USA, with the most European mining done in German.
China has recently announced plans to mine a further 10% coal than it did last year due to high gas costs, while America is still reliant on fossil fuels for it's electricity generation. Germany generates about 25% of it's electricity from coal. These 3 countries account for over 60% of the hashes.
https://ccaf.io/cbeci/mining_map
The argument that "Bitcoin is an essential tool in managing our resources" is entirely fanciful, and certainly doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Your recent posts have come across more as someone who is getting detached from reality than someone who is objectively looking at the issues and pragmatic solutions. Capitalism will out-live you, and out-live your children.
So tell us why its fanciful? China has recently announced plans to mine a further 10% coal than it did last year due to high gas costs, while America is still reliant on fossil fuels for it's electricity generation. Germany generates about 25% of it's electricity from coal. These 3 countries account for over 60% of the hashes.
https://ccaf.io/cbeci/mining_map
The argument that "Bitcoin is an essential tool in managing our resources" is entirely fanciful, and certainly doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Your recent posts have come across more as someone who is getting detached from reality than someone who is objectively looking at the issues and pragmatic solutions. Capitalism will out-live you, and out-live your children.
Edited by Condi on Wednesday 25th May 10:27
dimots said:
Energy usage is high because there is a race to mine new blocks while they are profitable. We have covered this previously. All the newspaper headlines and stuff you see about 'each btc transactions costs $1000' are bullst because the cost is to mine a block not to process a transaction. The charts that Cambridge share are guesstimates. The network is building and growing. Bitcoin is not using energy, miners are using the energy to mine blocks to get the bitcoin reward. When all the blocks are mined, miners do not receive bitcoin rewards, they receive transaction fees. I'm sure you can see that this will halt the gold rush and usher in a new era of efficiency driven block production where most transactions/least blocks is the economic model.
Each to their own. I'm not detached from reality, I spend most of my time in it. This is the crypto thread...other threads exist.
Another evidence-free assertion that everything will be just peachy "real soon now". In the meantime, let's just keep wasting phenomenal amounts of electricity.t because the cost is to mine a block not to process a transaction. The charts that Cambridge share are guesstimates. The network is building and growing. Bitcoin is not using energy, miners are using the energy to mine blocks to get the bitcoin reward. When all the blocks are mined, miners do not receive bitcoin rewards, they receive transaction fees. I'm sure you can see that this will halt the gold rush and usher in a new era of efficiency driven block production where most transactions/least blocks is the economic model.Each to their own. I'm not detached from reality, I spend most of my time in it. This is the crypto thread...other threads exist.
WY86 said:
So tell us why its fanciful?
Because far from "being an essential tool to manage our resources" the network is using enough energy to power 40% of Great Britain in areas where electricity is produced mainly from coal generation with associated very high CO2 emissions, for at best very little productive work. If that is "managing our resources" then maybe the world is doomed after all!
Condi said:
Because far from "being an essential tool to manage our resources" the network is using enough energy to power 40% of Great Britain in areas where electricity is produced mainly from coal generation with associated very high CO2 emissions, for at best very little productive work.
If that is "managing our resources" then maybe the world is doomed after all!
But it is ok then for oil and gas companies to generate huge revenues and push their share prices higher by producing that energy for Bitcoin mining? You don't actually understand anything about crypto or Bitcoin you just throw out these blanket statements and say Bitcoin is bad without any explanation well apart from some daily mail article of course. If that is "managing our resources" then maybe the world is doomed after all!
AW111 said:
WY86 said:
Ari said:
I'm still waiting to hear how 'bitcoins value is still 50x compared to their share prices', by the way... 
So for 1 bitcoin its currently 23kish to buy, what company has a single share worth close to that ?
Condi said:
Bitcoin mining is currently using about 13GW according to Cambridge Uni, about 40% of the current GB national demand. If you look at their map of where mining is taking place, you can see that the areas of highest mining are in China and the USA, with the most European mining done in German.
Assuming that meant to say Germany I find that very hard to believe. Electricity prices in Germany would make it quite uneconomic to do that.tertius said:
AW111 said:
WY86 said:
Ari said:
I'm still waiting to hear how 'bitcoins value is still 50x compared to their share prices', by the way...
So for 1 bitcoin its currently 23kish to buy, what company has a single share worth close to that ?WY86 said:
But it is ok then for oil and gas companies to generate huge revenues and push their share prices higher by producing that energy for Bitcoin mining? You don't actually understand anything about crypto or Bitcoin you just throw out these blanket statements and say Bitcoin is bad without any explanation well apart from some daily mail article of course.
What? Electricity is a demand lead model - ie we try and match supply to demand, we don't ask people to turn down demand in response to reduced supply. If oil and gas prices are high, that is because there is more demand than supply. Turn off bitcoin mining, demand reduces, oil and gas prices go down, oil and gas companies make less money. I'm not "throwing out blanket statements", I'm pointing to specific pieces of information from people who are knowledgeable about the subject. You cannot argue that Bitcoin mining doesn't produce CO2 emissions, and that if the research from Cambridge University is correct (and you or I have no reason to believe it isn't), then Bitcoin is being mined in some of the parts of the world which are most reliant on coal generation and thus are producing a large amount of CO2 for very questionable benefit. That's an indisputable fact.
dimots said:
Energy usage is high because there is a race to mine new blocks while they are profitable. We have covered this previously. All the newspaper headlines and stuff you see about 'each btc transactions costs $1000' are bullst because the cost is to mine a block not to process a transaction. The charts that Cambridge share are guesstimates. The network is building and growing. Bitcoin is not using energy, miners are using the energy to mine blocks to get the bitcoin reward. When all the blocks are mined, miners do not receive bitcoin rewards, they receive transaction fees. I'm sure you can see that this will halt the gold rush and usher in a new era of efficiency driven block production where most transactions/least blocks is the economic model.
Each to their own. I'm not detached from reality, I spend most of my time in it. This is the crypto thread...other threads exist.
Won't the miners still be competing for those rewards until the last block is mined, though? Which according to Google is 2140. I haven't fact-checked this though, so it could be incorrect.t because the cost is to mine a block not to process a transaction. The charts that Cambridge share are guesstimates. The network is building and growing. Bitcoin is not using energy, miners are using the energy to mine blocks to get the bitcoin reward. When all the blocks are mined, miners do not receive bitcoin rewards, they receive transaction fees. I'm sure you can see that this will halt the gold rush and usher in a new era of efficiency driven block production where most transactions/least blocks is the economic model.Each to their own. I'm not detached from reality, I spend most of my time in it. This is the crypto thread...other threads exist.
moonigan said:
Won't the miners still be competing for those rewards until the last block is mined, though? Which according to Google is 2140. I haven't fact-checked this though, so it could be incorrect.
Yeah they will. What the tapering off of supply means for competition to mine the last few blocks I'm not so sure of.Condi said:
What? Electricity is a demand lead model - ie we try and match supply to demand, we don't ask people to turn down demand in response to reduced supply. If oil and gas prices are high, that is because there is more demand than supply. Turn off bitcoin mining, demand reduces, oil and gas prices go down, oil and gas companies make less money.
I'm not "throwing out blanket statements", I'm pointing to specific pieces of information from people who are knowledgeable about the subject. You cannot argue that Bitcoin mining doesn't produce CO2 emissions, and that if the research from Cambridge University is correct (and you or I have no reason to believe it isn't), then Bitcoin is being mined in some of the parts of the world which are most reliant on coal generation and thus are producing a large amount of CO2 for very questionable benefit. That's an indisputable fact.
You really are going around the houses to try and build a case for why Bitcoin must be stopped. What about the countless other Crypto projects that do not require that intense amount of coal use then? so tell me in terms of C02 emissions where does Bitcoin sit compared to other high energy consumption activities?I'm not "throwing out blanket statements", I'm pointing to specific pieces of information from people who are knowledgeable about the subject. You cannot argue that Bitcoin mining doesn't produce CO2 emissions, and that if the research from Cambridge University is correct (and you or I have no reason to believe it isn't), then Bitcoin is being mined in some of the parts of the world which are most reliant on coal generation and thus are producing a large amount of CO2 for very questionable benefit. That's an indisputable fact.
WY86 said:
You really are going around the houses to try and build a case for why Bitcoin must be stopped. What about the countless other Crypto projects that do not require that intense amount of coal use then? so tell me in terms of C02 emissions where does Bitcoin sit compared to other high energy consumption activities?
I focus on Bitcoin because it has a market cap greater than the next 15 largest cypto-currencies combined! It is by far and away the largest and most influential. You seem to be comparing apples with pears. If people don't heat their homes they die. If we don't make steel we have no cars, no railways, no electronic goods. If we don't have bitcoin....? Bitcoin is a waste of energy, responsible for billions of tonnes of CO2 emissions for very little utility. Of course the current financial system uses electricity (quite a bit of it), but that is doing actual work - nobody is using Bitcoin to transact with other than to buy and sell Bitcoin itself.
Zoon said:
tertius said:
AW111 said:
WY86 said:
Ari said:
I'm still waiting to hear how 'bitcoins value is still 50x compared to their share prices', by the way...
So for 1 bitcoin its currently 23kish to buy, what company has a single share worth close to that ?But financial literacy does tend not to be a big feature of most get-rich-quick crypto supporters, certainly not as highly as wishful thinking.
Or, in some cases, actual literacy...
WY86 said:
Again blanketing all crypto projects just because you see no value in Bitcoin just sums you up, why don't you actually go look at some projects other than just think it is all a big pyrmid scheme. Also if it is a big pyrmid scheme i would rather be in at the start and make money rather than getting in last... but hey
What on earth makes you think that you are 'in at the start'? 
The smart money has already been made and has long since sold out, it's just people scrabbling around trying to emulate them now.
Oh well, hope you don't 'loose' too much money.
Ari said:
What on earth makes you think that you are 'in at the start'?
The smart money has already been made and has long since sold out, it's just people scrabbling around trying to emulate them now.
Oh well, hope you don't 'loose' too much money.
Sure it has Ari… also a lot of assumptions about people wanting to get rich quick from crypto. When from what i can see no one is saying their crypto portfolio is going to 50x,100x,300x. It amazes me how you seem to know how the entire crypto world is functioning and trying to emulate when really you know very little about anything about it. ow my bad a spelling mistake whoopsThe smart money has already been made and has long since sold out, it's just people scrabbling around trying to emulate them now.
Oh well, hope you don't 'loose' too much money.
Edited by WY86 on Wednesday 25th May 13:23
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