Mum wants to sell up and move in with me

[Pieman68]

Happened to a friend of my ex's family. Mother had early stages of dementia. They sold up and built an annexe on their house for her to move into using funds from the house sale

From what I can recall, the mother then deteriorated rapidly and ended up having to move to a care home as they were unable to cope at home

Pretty sure that the local authority pursued them to pay the money back (for the build of the annexe) to cover care costs

[Mr Whippy]

The ‘keep you going’ industry is becoming increasingly undesirable as a future prospect.
You slip into it and then there is no way out, they just suck you dry before you die.

You could argue a whole lot of industry and service providers love the fact we likely spend the last 5% of our days basically doing fk all, broadly left to it by our loved ones, at vast cost.


I hope I die fairly quickly, going from all there and self-sufficient, to gone… even if it means 5 years not living like a potato.

[Phil.]

Mr Whippy said:

The ‘keep you going’ industry is becoming increasingly undesirable as a future prospect.
You slip into it and then there is no way out, they just suck you dry before you die.

You could argue a whole lot of industry and service providers love the fact we likely spend the last 5% of our days basically doing fk all, broadly left to it by our loved ones, at vast cost.

I hope I die fairly quickly, going from all there and self-sufficient, to gone… even if it means 5 years not living like a potato.

I empathise with this view having recently seen my 87 year old mother ‘’settle into’’ her £1350 a week accommodation (incarcerated routine) with so much attention she’ll live for another 10 years. The sad thing is her quality of life is ‘boring and uncomfortable’ according to her. She doesn’t and doesn’t want to move out of her room, doesn’t socialise at all, only speaks to the carers and a few visitors. Doesn’t want to read or listen to music, watches TV for an hour a day if encouraged. She isn’t interested in what her grandchildren are doing or in any conversation unless it’s repeating stuff about the past, which she’s now beginning to forget too. Whilst she’s doubly incontinent and can’t move without 2 carers and a mechanic lift. And she doesn’t like the food. By choice she’s in bed by 5pm and doesn’t get up until 9am.

I really hope I go before getting to this expensive stage of my life.

[croyde]

I'm only 60 and currently pretty fit but all I do now is work in order to not quite cover my rent.

Looks like it's only downhill from now on. Good job we are mostly not allowed pistols in this country.

[pequod]

Phil. said:

Mr Whippy said:

The ‘keep you going’ industry is becoming increasingly undesirable as a future prospect.
You slip into it and then there is no way out, they just suck you dry before you die.

You could argue a whole lot of industry and service providers love the fact we likely spend the last 5% of our days basically doing fk all, broadly left to it by our loved ones, at vast cost.

I hope I die fairly quickly, going from all there and self-sufficient, to gone… even if it means 5 years not living like a potato.

I empathise with this view having recently seen my 87 year old mother ‘’settle into’’ her £1350 a week accommodation (incarcerated routine) with so much attention she’ll live for another 10 years. The sad thing is her quality of life is ‘boring and uncomfortable’ according to her. She doesn’t and doesn’t want to move out of her room, doesn’t socialise at all, only speaks to the carers and a few visitors. Doesn’t want to read or listen to music, watches TV for an hour a day if encouraged. She isn’t interested in what her grandchildren are doing or in any conversation unless it’s repeating stuff about the past, which she’s now beginning to forget too. Whilst she’s doubly incontinent and can’t move without 2 carers and a mechanic lift. And she doesn’t like the food. By choice she’s in bed by 5pm and doesn’t get up until 9am.

I really hope I go before getting to this expensive stage of my life.

Both perfectly understandable viewpoints until you're the one placed into a Care Home.
Unless you have family members who will step up to look after you, in your own home, there are only limited options which are equally expensive as a Care Home. A personal Live-In Carer (regularly different people) at home won't be the same as family but might suit if that's available?

In the OP's situation, I would look at building a two bedroom, self contained annex.

[Phil.]

pequod said:

Both perfectly understandable viewpoints until you're the one placed into a Care Home.
Unless you have family members who will step up to look after you, in your own home, there are only limited options which are equally expensive as a Care Home. A personal Live-In Carer (regularly different people) at home won't be the same as family but might suit if that's available?

In the OP's situation, I would look at building a two bedroom, self contained annex.

I looked into the cost of carers at home and if it’s 24/7 it’s not too dissimilar a cost to a care home, may be more because you’re still paying for the accommodation and food etc. Plus you need a spare room for the carers to sleep.

I really don’t think my mother is enjoying her extended existence (she nearly died last year prior to entering the care home) and the scenario is only likely to worsen.

My FIL was paying £2k a week in a care home for around 2 years before he died. He’d had a stroke, couldn’t eat/drink so was peg fed, doubly incontinent, couldn’t talk etc. But we as a society kept him going with 24/7 expensive medical care. He spent about 50% of his remaining wealth in those 2 years.

I think we could learn a few lessons from Canada and give people more of a choice.

BTW I don’t need and have never planned for any inheritance so my opinion is not financially biased and similar opinions about my mother’s lack of quality of life have been voiced by other family members since she entered the care home last year.

As for the OP. Don’t do it unless you are prepared to give up your life for any number of years or have the finance in place to fund a care home if required.

[Mr Whippy]

Phil. said:

BTW I don’t need and have never planned for any inheritance so my opinion is not financially biased and similar opinions about my mother’s lack of quality of life have been voiced by other family members since she entered the care home last year.

To be frank on the matter, I think people should think about this.
It’s a waste of money if the person is withering away in isolation of the love of their family and faculties.

It’s just a morbid indulgence of society unwilling to face the realities of life.
There then seems to be a morbid enabling of this under the pretence that the spend is worth it because they love them so much.


The net effect is a few minimum wage carers get a tiny fraction of the wealth of a failing human, while ‘the system’ gorges the rest away in an orgy of end of life ‘care’ indulgence… excused away with “don’t you love them”, or “they deserve this time” or whatever other excuses we make.


My kids might say “keep him alive for 5yrs at the cost of £500,000.
I’d say let me go when I can’t sustain myself and I’m past it.
If the kids feel guilty taking it, knowing the price, give it to a worthy charity (without expensive directors).
Thinking all those years worked, missing time with your very loved ones, just so strangers can look after you as you shrivel up for a fraction of time at the end of your life. What’s the bloody point?

Ffs it’s just a stupid waste of money just lining the pockets of what are kind of like vultures circling a dying animal.
They don’t add any value to society, making a brighter future for future generations.


It’s a horrible subject, but it’s all a brutal reality.

[phil1979]

nunpuncher said:

After having my mother in law stay with us for just 2 nights last week I can understand how such a situation might lead to divorce.

Please tell me that she works in a convent.

[Lord Flashheart]

OP here. Thank you for your comments and opinions so far. All food for thought. I'll be speaking to a lawyer this week about the financial situation, that I will then report back here on.
As far as caring for mum in the future goes, I know there's a risk of bringing misery upon myself and wife, but it's a risk we will take if the money is safe. I should point out that we would take her in even if she didn't have any money too. The problem we have is that our house is not old person friendly, so the out building is a necessity.
My mum is definitely not a person whose last years should be spent rotting in a care home, albeit I do appreciate sometimes the level of care just can't be at home. Both of my parents worked hard all their lives, paid their taxes and their NI. To give their hard earned to a care home is not something either of them would have been happy about. My mum in particular gets very angry that those who aspire to nice things in life and work hard for them are penalised at this stage, when the spongers who have done nothing get rewarded and looked after by the state. She's old school.

[bennno]

Lord Flashheart said:

OP here. Thank you for your comments and opinions so far. All food for thought. I'll be speaking to a lawyer this week about the financial situation, that I will then report back here on.
As far as caring for mum in the future goes, I know there's a risk of bringing misery upon myself and wife, but it's a risk we will take if the money is safe. I should point out that we would take her in even if she didn't have any money too. The problem we have is that our house is not old person friendly, so the out building is a necessity.
My mum is definitely not a person whose last years should be spent rotting in a care home, albeit I do appreciate sometimes the level of care just can't be at home. Both of my parents worked hard all their lives, paid their taxes and their NI. To give their hard earned to a care home is not something either of them would have been happy about. My mum in particular gets very angry that those who aspire to nice things in life and work hard for them are penalised at this stage, when the spongers who have done nothing get rewarded and looked after by the state. She's old school.

My parents moved to a house with an annex in similar circumstances, grannie took an awful lot of looking after over 10+ years, eventually grandmother was so unwell there was no option but care home. Note for 10 years my parents looked after her almost exclusively companionship, cooking, cleaning, shopping, running about to doctors, paying heating, water, electric, council tax, skipping holidays (unless another sibling would reluctantly agree to cover) etc.

Then when the sad day came the other siblings asked for my parents house to be sold to release 'their' share of the money that had partly gone towards the house with the annex!

So in short, think deeply about it, long term commitment, ensure there is a family meeting and its all extremely well documented.

Edited by bennno on Wednesday 22 March 10:40

[alscar]

bennno said:

So in short, think deeply about it, long term commitment, ensure there is a family meeting and its all extremely well documented.

Edited by bennno on Wednesday 22 March 10:40

+1 to this especially the thinking deeply about it.

Lord Flash , I am full of admiration for what you and your wife are considering though.

Quite a few years ago we thought about developing a piece of our land to build 2 houses for both sets of parents and talked with various professionals about the pros and cons.
It didn’t happen in the end for various reasons ( my Dad dying suddenly who was the most keen for this to happen was the main reason ) but now looking back I really wish it had gone through.

[HRL]

We did the same with my MIL almost two years ago. No problems at all but we did purposely buy a large property that had a pre-existing annexe.

She has her independence, but we’re there for her in case she needs us.

In regards to the 7 year IHT rule, I think for the first two years if she died we’d be liable for 100% IHT, then it reduces by a percentage every year until the 7th year is up and then there’s no liability at all.

It probably wouldn’t work for everyone but it’s working for us so far. Could be difficult in later years but that’s what family is for IMO.

[Pitre]

Just a thought, if mum paid the costs of the annexe directly to the builder wouldn't she just be spending her own assets rather than gifting her son the money, particularly if part ownership of the property doesn't go to her?

[Pitre]

Pitre said:

Just a thought, if mum paid the costs of the annexe directly to the builder wouldn't she just be spending her own assets rather than gifting her son the money, particularly if part ownership of the property doesn't go to her?

Having said that, we had father in law move in for a while. He had deteriorating Alzheimer's though and it became very difficult after a couple of years and he went into sheltered housing where tbh he was much safer and happier (as were we!).

[Mr Whippy]

bennno said:

My parents moved to a house with an annex in similar circumstances, grannie took an awful lot of looking after over 10+ years, eventually grandmother was so unwell there was no option but care home. Note for 10 years my parents looked after her almost exclusively companionship, cooking, cleaning, shopping, running about to doctors, paying heating, water, electric, council tax, skipping holidays (unless another sibling would reluctantly agree to cover) etc.

Then when the sad day came the other siblings asked for my parents house to be sold to release 'their' share of the money that had partly gone towards the house with the annex!

So in short, think deeply about it, long term commitment, ensure there is a family meeting and its all extremely well documented.

Edited by bennno on Wednesday 22 March 10:40

My Dad did the same for his mother. It’s a big commitment and one that went without meaningful thanks or recompense or much else from other members of the family.


Given your example of the equity release requested from siblings at the end etc, definitely something to structure into things then... somehow.

Money, families, and death, never go down well, when it’s not in black and white.

[Ari]

clio007 said:

How sad.
Sounds like the constant care you needed when you were in your nappies plus the 9 months of walking around with you in her tummy plus all that accompanies.

That's about the dummest comment I've ever read on Pistonheads, and that's against some pretty stiff competition!

[Pitre]

Ari said:

That's about the dummest comment I've ever read on Pistonheads, and that's against some pretty stiff competition!

[NRS]

Mr Whippy said:

Phil. said:

BTW I don’t need and have never planned for any inheritance so my opinion is not financially biased and similar opinions about my mother’s lack of quality of life have been voiced by other family members since she entered the care home last year.

To be frank on the matter, I think people should think about this.
It’s a waste of money if the person is withering away in isolation of the love of their family and faculties.

It’s just a morbid indulgence of society unwilling to face the realities of life.
There then seems to be a morbid enabling of this under the pretence that the spend is worth it because they love them so much.


The net effect is a few minimum wage carers get a tiny fraction of the wealth of a failing human, while ‘the system’ gorges the rest away in an orgy of end of life ‘care’ indulgence… excused away with “don’t you love them”, or “they deserve this time” or whatever other excuses we make.


My kids might say “keep him alive for 5yrs at the cost of £500,000.
I’d say let me go when I can’t sustain myself and I’m past it.
If the kids feel guilty taking it, knowing the price, give it to a worthy charity (without expensive directors).
Thinking all those years worked, missing time with your very loved ones, just so strangers can look after you as you shrivel up for a fraction of time at the end of your life. What’s the bloody point?

Ffs it’s just a stupid waste of money just lining the pockets of what are kind of like vultures circling a dying animal.
They don’t add any value to society, making a brighter future for future generations.


It’s a horrible subject, but it’s all a brutal reality.

It's not even the money, it's more about the standard of living. Several older relatives have just wanted to go because they had lost all their friends etc and were just not able to do the stuff they loved. But of course it's not allowed. I can see that changing in the future, as we continue to make more and more live into bad health for many years but keep saving their lives.

[Anastie]

The 7 year rule. No such thing. Full stop. Sorry but it does not exist.

Every local authority can be different in how the apply the rules for claiming money back. If for example mum/dad sell their house and move in with you and 10 or 20 years later they need to go into care. It’s up to the local authority to prove that there was a misappropriation of funds. In other words it was done with the intention of avoiding paying care costs.

If it was done 10 or 20 years ago it’s harder to prove and if the parent was of sound mind moving in and of good health that can go in your favour. However, if the parent moved in due to frailty and sold their house. Then the local authority have very strong grounds to ask for the money to cover care costs.

[bennno]

Anastie said:

The 7 year rule. No such thing. Full stop. Sorry but it does not exist.

Every local authority can be different in how the apply the rules for claiming money back. If for example mum/dad sell their house and move in with you and 10 or 20 years later they need to go into care. It’s up to the local authority to prove that there was a misappropriation of funds. In other words it was done with the intention of avoiding paying care costs.

If it was done 10 or 20 years ago it’s harder to prove and if the parent was of sound mind moving in and of good health that can go in your favour. However, if the parent moved in due to frailty and sold their house. Then the local authority have very strong grounds to ask for the money to cover care costs.

The 7 year rule does exist, but it’s related to inheritance tax.