Retrospective building regs or Indemnity Insurance?
Discussion
Just in the process of buying another house, and the vendor has just advised (literally just a few days before we exchange) that the roof terrace off the back of the main bedroom, although it had planning permission, he 'forgot' to get building regs sign-off. It's been there since 2007 and is effectively just a timber terrace over the top of a flat roof.
The vendor has told me that he's happy to pay for some indemnity insurance, rather than go through the process of apply for retrospective approval which could take some time.
Can anyone offer any advice? I've no idea what to do in this situation and one of the buyers lower down in the chain is saying they may pull out if it takes any longer - I don't want to lose out on this house, but want to make sure everything is right.
The vendor has told me that he's happy to pay for some indemnity insurance, rather than go through the process of apply for retrospective approval which could take some time.
Can anyone offer any advice? I've no idea what to do in this situation and one of the buyers lower down in the chain is saying they may pull out if it takes any longer - I don't want to lose out on this house, but want to make sure everything is right.
Never dealt with this sort of situation before but........
My 2p worth!
If it's as simple as you say, some timber balustrades over a flat roof (guess) then a structural engineer and a retro app "might" be best! If the engineer says all ok submit the app & let the exchange take place!
All subject to a good engineer and any other building regs implications, such as height of balustrade etc!
If it was a planning issue you would be putting the sale back 2 months!
HTH!
As said not been involved with this before so I stand to be corrected
My 2p worth!
If it's as simple as you say, some timber balustrades over a flat roof (guess) then a structural engineer and a retro app "might" be best! If the engineer says all ok submit the app & let the exchange take place!
All subject to a good engineer and any other building regs implications, such as height of balustrade etc!
If it was a planning issue you would be putting the sale back 2 months!
HTH!
As said not been involved with this before so I stand to be corrected
We sold our house in May/June time. We'd had some work done about 6/7 years previously and never had it signed off by building control. I phoned the BC office, they looked up their records said 'You're right, it's never been signed off' (we simply hadn't realised it needed doing) so they came out within 48 hours and gave us a certificate. It really is that easy - unless building regs were never submitted in the first place, in which case, I'd be a little wary.
Have been doing a bit of reading on this, and am thinking the indemnity insurance may be the way to go (if the vendor will indeed pay for it). I don't want to risk holding up (and possibly losing) the sale over insisting on some building regs sign off, if for a nominal amount I can be covered in case the council ever got wind of it. The balcony doesn't overlook anyone as its a very private garden so can't see anyone complaining. Guess it only causes a problem if/when we want to move again. We had a proper structural survey and nothing came up about the balcony being unsafe/falling down although they said they couldn't get to the roof underneath it. But didn't have any concerns.
Am I missing something? My only worry is why has the vendor waited until now to tell me he 'forgot' to get the sign-off....
ETA: just seen the planning permission for it and subsequent planning permission for a further extension that also incorporates the existing balcony so don't think there's anything sinister going on...
Am I missing something? My only worry is why has the vendor waited until now to tell me he 'forgot' to get the sign-off....
ETA: just seen the planning permission for it and subsequent planning permission for a further extension that also incorporates the existing balcony so don't think there's anything sinister going on...
Edited by Joyrider1 on Thursday 4th October 20:38
Retrospective BR can be got quite quickly , done one for a mate in under a week, BUT ....
The word balcony sends shivers down me due to the possible detail required by the building inspector.
Were the correct sized joists used , as Herbi says about the balustrading , was it designed to resist the correct horizontal force, etc etc.
To get the answers to the above , the building inspector could ask for the above to be exposed which would be a real pain.
If no approach has been made to the council about this build , then the indemnity policy is going to duck all these issues and let you complete the move with no delays , you just take the risk that all has been built fit for purpose and it is something that may need addressing when you come to sell the property .
The word balcony sends shivers down me due to the possible detail required by the building inspector.
Were the correct sized joists used , as Herbi says about the balustrading , was it designed to resist the correct horizontal force, etc etc.
To get the answers to the above , the building inspector could ask for the above to be exposed which would be a real pain.
If no approach has been made to the council about this build , then the indemnity policy is going to duck all these issues and let you complete the move with no delays , you just take the risk that all has been built fit for purpose and it is something that may need addressing when you come to sell the property .
The real issue is if it was not built to standards, or if its just not signed off. My extension isn't signed off, but we' ve been using it for years. There are a couple of small details we need to change, but i've not done them yet.
The BI told me he recently signed off an extension that was started 25 years ago.
The BI told me he recently signed off an extension that was started 25 years ago.
We sold a place that had an understairs loo with no BR.
We were up front from day 1 about it and obviously bought and paid for the indemnity insurance.
The risk as we saw it was that BR might have said NO - at which point the whole chain is royally FUBAR.
The loo had worked fine for years, hadn't killed any kittens nor burned the house down so the buyers had no problem.
We were up front from day 1 about it and obviously bought and paid for the indemnity insurance.
The risk as we saw it was that BR might have said NO - at which point the whole chain is royally FUBAR.
The loo had worked fine for years, hadn't killed any kittens nor burned the house down so the buyers had no problem.
The flat roof will have been designed with 'access for maintenance and repair'. Live loading for floors in domestic properties is greater than the above. In addition you have the extra dead load of the decking.
Get a structural engineer to investigate and do the calcs to make sure the old ceiling joist are strong enough (he'll have to check out the size and spacing of the joists) ... if the joists cannot be justified (and they'll probably fail in deflection limits rather than flexural strength) then he will be able to suggest remedial measures such as perhaps the installation of a steel beam.
Then there's the question of the balustrade and other measures to prevent anyone falling .... again the structural engineer may be able to justify by calculation, but if it is of timber construction this will be more difficult as all the strength is in the joints.
I would rather go down this route rather than relying on Building Regulations alone ... have you ever tried to sue a local authority building regulations department ?
Get a structural engineer to investigate and do the calcs to make sure the old ceiling joist are strong enough (he'll have to check out the size and spacing of the joists) ... if the joists cannot be justified (and they'll probably fail in deflection limits rather than flexural strength) then he will be able to suggest remedial measures such as perhaps the installation of a steel beam.
Then there's the question of the balustrade and other measures to prevent anyone falling .... again the structural engineer may be able to justify by calculation, but if it is of timber construction this will be more difficult as all the strength is in the joints.
I would rather go down this route rather than relying on Building Regulations alone ... have you ever tried to sue a local authority building regulations department ?
Edited by ATTAK Z on Friday 5th October 10:40
I was reading the article in the link below in the local rag today, short story is builders made some 'adjustments' to the approved plans, retrospective planning denied, the house has to be bulldozed to the ground!
An extreme case perhaps but after reading this I wouldn't just assume that retrospective planning for anything was a given.
http://www.kirkintilloch-herald.co.uk/news/local-h...
An extreme case perhaps but after reading this I wouldn't just assume that retrospective planning for anything was a given.
http://www.kirkintilloch-herald.co.uk/news/local-h...
yellowbentines said:
I was reading the article in the link below in the local rag today, short story is builders made some 'adjustments' to the approved plans, retrospective planning denied, ..........
Planning permission is a different matter, the OP says planning permission has been given in this case, it's Building Control approval he is worried aboutYeah, it's just the building regs that I'm worried about - got a pic of the balcony in question that I'll try to upload later - but it looks like although it sits on the flat roof it has timber struts all round that are bolted to the lower wall (using metal clamps) so would imagine it doesn't have it's full weight on the roof. The only specified requirements I see in the planning permission and any building regs related to balconies on the web are that the balustrades need to be 1m high (which they are).
Joyrider1 said:
.... to balconies on the web are that the balustrades need to be 1m high (which they are).
see AD K Diagram 11for single family dwellings, the height of the guarding to external balconies and edges of a roof should be 1100 mm
Also see clause 3.3 ref. children under 5 years
Joyrider1 said:
Yeah, it's just the building regs that I'm worried about - got a pic of the balcony in question that I'll try to upload later - but it looks like although it sits on the flat roof it has timber struts all round that are bolted to the lower wall (using metal clamps) so would imagine it doesn't have it's full weight on the roof. The only specified requirements I see in the planning permission and any building regs related to balconies on the web are that the balustrades need to be 1m high (which they are).
You will definitely need engineers calcs to prove the bolting to the wall , it really is not that easy. Apply a horizontal load to the handrail and imagine how much leverage you have , the reaL problem could be the bolts staying attached and top couple of rows of brickwork falling away.
I only know from a previous client innocently turning a flat roof into a balcony , his "friend" who was an "engineer" ( not structural though ) designed the balustrading to comply with the required force for an internal rail at 900 high , the required force for outside is more than double, and as mentioned above , it should be 1100 high with non climbable balusters. Big fail and lots of cost .
If it were me , I would contact building control and get them on site, agree what is required , if anything and go from there.
You may be worrying about nothing , or you are about to take on a diy disaster where you cannot let the family go.
The indemnity is just an avoidance for doing things properly.
ks then!voicey said:
How on earth did you get so close to exchanging without your solicitor picking up something so important as this?
Our solicitors have been chasing it for a while but only just got the info back...Based on some of the comments on here I've sent back a list of questions for the vendor - thanks for your help guys!Pics of said balcony below (sorry, they're not the best pics)- ultimately I'd like to replace the balustrading etc at some point anyway for some decent metal ones...
Edited by Joyrider1 on Friday 5th October 15:49
Edited by Joyrider1 on Friday 5th October 15:50
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