Help with butchered old staircase

Help with butchered old staircase

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Ug_lee

Original Poster:

2,223 posts

210 months

Tuesday 31st March 2015
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Hi everyone

Hoping I can get a few pointers from folk as to what my options are and what/who can return the stairs to their former glory. We are slowly doing up the whole of the house and this is the next part of our project.

Basically a Georgian house that used to be 3 separate, 2 bedroom flats and they were all put back to one house by the previous owners. The work they did to ensure everyone had access to the flats meant they completely ruined the staircase. The previous owners who joined the property back up again, did it on the cheap and just caked the mess up with gallons of paint. Muggins here bought the place and I'm slowly undoing all the bodges.

Anyway I'll show the photos to gives you an idea

Downstairs volute, generally okay condition, way overpainted, but how do I return the profile of the bottom step back to something resembling round, as it has been bashed/modified in the past and just looks sorry for itself:


Edge of the steps have been chopped off I assume for a partition wall in the past which butted up to the edge of the steps, I was thinking make up wood sections that match the profile of the untouched steps upstairs? fix fill/blend do you think it would look okay?


This is where it gets pretty bad. Basically 1st floor volute gone and all the spindles gone. I think this was done because a partition wall was put up right at the bottom of the steps for the 1st floor flat and to give access to the 2nd floor flat they just chopped them off. cry
I hope to have new spindles and main central spindle cast using the ones downstairs as a former for a new cast. Reckon it's possible?



Words fail me when I see this most days, luckily the lower floor has an intact carving which would match this profile.


And more pictures of just general bodgeness that drives me crazy every day I see it!




It could be stunning, but where do I start? Some of it I can do but the carving of the rails etc is waaay beyond me. Would it be possible to have someone carve a new volute and curved banister sections using existing surviving pieces as a template? Or am I looking at having to get specialists involved? We are in Scotland so those sort of skills are not easy to come by.

All advice greatly appreciated!

Edited by Uggers on Tuesday 8th August 19:10

rufusgti

2,528 posts

191 months

Tuesday 31st March 2015
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All I can say is it will be worth the money and effort.
What a wonderful feature to have.
Good luck with it.

paulrockliffe

15,638 posts

226 months

Tuesday 31st March 2015
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Griffboy did something vaguely similar in his thread, might be worth a read. Good luck!

Griff Boy

1,563 posts

230 months

Tuesday 31st March 2015
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Hi, Paul beat me to it! Yes, I had a not dissimilar project to take on, restoring a four floor curved georgian staircase that had been butchered in the past.

There's a lot of pictures on my thread about the work, and i can pass on lots more of how I chose to refurbish the handrail.

They can take hours of work, but can become a major feature of the property when complete!

A before shot of mine







And and an after








ShiningWit

10,203 posts

127 months

Tuesday 31st March 2015
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What a sad mess, I wonder how much it will cost to put that right in total by a pro, £5 - 10k?
Cut, mitre and bracket staircase incase you didn't know.

wolfracesonic

6,940 posts

126 months

Wednesday 1st April 2015
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This might be of interest if fancy having a go at carving your own volutes, hand railing etc, or indeed if you want to know anything about the types of joinery in older properties like yours. Don't let the title fool you, it was first printed in 1902 and for anyone who thinks they know anything about joinery, read it and think again!


Modern practical joinery

Rosscow

8,723 posts

162 months

Wednesday 1st April 2015
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ShiningWit said:
What a sad mess, I wonder how much it will cost to put that right in total by a pro, £5 - 10k?
Cut, mitre and bracket staircase incase you didn't know.
Or more commonly known as a 'cut string' staircase. The OP's staircase doesn't really have any brackets.

Rosscow

8,723 posts

162 months

Wednesday 1st April 2015
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wolfracesonic said:
This might be of interest if fancy having a go at carving your own volutes, hand railing etc, or indeed if you want to know anything about the types of joinery in older properties like yours. Don't let the title fool you, it was first printed in 1902 and for anyone who thinks they know anything about joinery, read it and think again!


Modern practical joinery
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Modern-Practical-Stairbuilding-Handrailing-George/dp/0854420460/ref=pd_sim_b_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=0Z6PF0FA112WJV12A1BP

Ug_lee

Original Poster:

2,223 posts

210 months

Wednesday 1st April 2015
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Griff Boy said:
Lots of useful stuff
Thanks for that Griff Boy, I get quite down when I see the house and the state it has been left to get into through nothing more than people who just couldn't be arsed. I thought I had a challenge but your place makes mine look like a 3 bed Barratt house! The speed at which you are hitting it is astonishing though.

I have to do mine as and when finances allow but 14 new windows, new huge stone lintels, new roof, 3 new external doors and 3 decorated and finished rooms isn't too bad so far in 3 years. Just another 3 bathrooms, 5 bedrooms, 2 kitchens, 2 garages and stable block to go!

Like you though I am also rather daunted by the hallway, it's not going to be fun (or cheap)

Interesting that your rail is lots of little pieces slotted in to give the effect of a curving banister. I need to get the rails stripped on mine but the suspicion is that it's a solid carving. And despite the books that I could read on how to carve I simply do not have the time or skill to take that on. I may have to replace the whole rail in a similar style to yours as that would be within my level of ability, but ideally I'd like to find someone willing to recreate using my surving parts as formers/templates. Case of finding someone though!

ShiningWit said:
What a sad mess, I wonder how much it will cost to put that right in total by a pro, £5 - 10k?
Cut, mitre and bracket staircase incase you didn't know.
I had a similar figure in my head, worth it though for the effect as it's the main part of the house that everyone sees. I hope to create a hallway similar to this:
http://www.houzz.co.uk/photos/20458583/restoration...

Rosscow said:
Or more commonly known as a 'cut string' staircase. The OP's staircase doesn't really have any brackets.
I was never sure of what sort of staircase it was, looking at it I'm still not 100% how it stays in place.

Thanks for all the advice, when I have stopped stripping paint off everything or pointing I shall get a build thread up with the interesting stuff on it smile

ShiningWit

10,203 posts

127 months

Wednesday 1st April 2015
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Rosscow said:
ShiningWit said:
What a sad mess, I wonder how much it will cost to put that right in total by a pro, £5 - 10k?
Cut, mitre and bracket staircase incase you didn't know.
Or more commonly known as a 'cut string' staircase. The OP's staircase doesn't really have any brackets.
I did notice, I just assumed they'd been torn off and chucked in the bin with the rest!
I actually think I would have refused to do that to a staircase. Whenever we had to take little features down I used to hide them in the attic or places like that so they could be put back on at a later date.

Some Gump

12,671 posts

185 months

Wednesday 1st April 2015
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OP,

Are you planning for the rail to be painted or polished?

If painted, could you remove the "good" twirly bit at the end, and cast a copy in fibreglass / carbon? I see car build threads with bits made that way quite often, seemingly by people doing it for the first time. Only issues I can see would be paint and "temperature feel" - composite might feel colder / warmer than wood..

For the ends of the stairs, personally I'd add extra wood batons attached on dowels, then pass a router round the lot once in place - doubt they'd need to be overly load bearing? Again, only works if you're planning to paint...

Canny looking project though, will be class when you've finished =)

Ug_lee

Original Poster:

2,223 posts

210 months

Wednesday 1st April 2015
quotequote all
Thanks, yes if I'd have been told to remove them I'd have done a similar thing. Once they are gone they are gone for good!

I was hoping to have polished wood rails. Everything and I mean absolutely everything is covered in about 20 layers of ever increasingly badly applied paint (It took 3 days to strip one door). Also I am unable to sand back to decent paint and repaint as it all just comes off in pieces as none of the coats have been keyed.
I've been taking everything so far back to bare wood, which on woodwork this old is lengthy if not slightly hazardous with the lead in the older paint. The skirtings are in such a state and in about 6 different styles that I'm contemplating ripping the lot out and replacing with new.

So yes to have some natural polished wood, would certainly be welcome and a boost to my house fixing mojo!

I've managed to find the odd company who can create carvings of stairway components so shall try my luck with them. Also companies can recreate existing balusters. How much they are I shall report back on! smile

subsea99

464 posts

172 months

Wednesday 1st April 2015
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What about getting the doors and woodwork dipped,it does dry Out the wood but a good oil can bring it back and will save you a hell of a lot of time.

Griff Boy

1,563 posts

230 months

Thursday 2nd April 2015
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Ug_lee said:
Thanks, yes if I'd have been told to remove them I'd have done a similar thing. Once they are gone they are gone for good!

I was hoping to have polished wood rails. Everything and I mean absolutely everything is covered in about 20 layers of ever increasingly badly applied paint (It took 3 days to strip one door). Also I am unable to sand back to decent paint and repaint as it all just comes off in pieces as none of the coats have been keyed.
I've been taking everything so far back to bare wood, which on woodwork this old is lengthy if not slightly hazardous with the lead in the older paint. The skirtings are in such a state and in about 6 different styles that I'm contemplating ripping the lot out and replacing with new.

So yes to have some natural polished wood, would certainly be welcome and a boost to my house fixing mojo!

I've managed to find the odd company who can create carvings of stairway components so shall try my luck with them. Also companies can recreate existing balusters. How much they are I shall report back on! smile
I did find a company that would make exact replicas of the pieces I needed, using a 3d scan and a special CNC cutting / milling machine. Based in Scotland too, only issue was the price... They can just machine the parts for you though, and you fit, finish the rest? Will certainly help with funds. If you want their details let me know and I'll dig them out for you. Ref the handrail, yes, mines unusual, in that it's sections, not really sure why, but that's the "joy" of old buildings! Good luck in doing it though, as when it's back to wood and finished they look wonderful. I reckon I have spent around 40-50 hours on mine in total, including best part of 6 hours yesterday painting the spindles ready for the stair carpet to be laid!

I also did a lot of research on the best way to finish the raw wood (once I'd got down to it! ) and I used a process of a spirit based wood dye, grain filler and polyuthethane varnish for the most durable finish possible, as it gets rubbed a lot when people walk up and down the stairs. All takes time, but it's worth it.

Ug_lee

Original Poster:

2,223 posts

210 months

Thursday 2nd April 2015
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subsea99 said:
What about getting the doors and woodwork dipped,it does dry Out the wood but a good oil can bring it back and will save you a hell of a lot of time.
Yes it was something I'd hope to avoid especially with the issues you've pointed out, but 3 days to strip + 1 day to repair, paint and preparation for rehanging x 18 doors= 72 days eek

It's amazing how a simple job can take either so long or something as simple as a few bits of door furniture add up. For example the first job I had when I moved in was remove the paint from all the hinges off all the doors as none of them would open. 36 hinges and best part of an hour a piece! Then Door handles, even cheapish ones at £25 suddenly turns into a near £500 bill!

Griff Boy said:
I did find a company that would make exact replicas of the pieces I needed, using a 3d scan and a special CNC cutting / milling machine. Based in Scotland too, only issue was the price... They can just machine the parts for you though, and you fit, finish the rest? Will certainly help with funds. If you want their details let me know and I'll dig them out for you. Ref the handrail, yes, mines unusual, in that it's sections, not really sure why, but that's the "joy" of old buildings! Good luck in doing it though, as when it's back to wood and finished they look wonderful. I reckon I have spent around 40-50 hours on mine in total, including best part of 6 hours yesterday painting the spindles ready for the stair carpet to be laid!

I also did a lot of research on the best way to finish the raw wood (once I'd got down to it! ) and I used a process of a spirit based wood dye, grain filler and polyuthethane varnish for the most durable finish possible, as it gets rubbed a lot when people walk up and down the stairs. All takes time, but it's worth it.
This was a process I thought could be applied, as I have experience of CNC manufacture however the CNC process is incredibly expensive for one off components as you found out!
I am currently talking to a company in York that have experience carving one off stair components so shall see how I get on there. I aim to have the parts made and myself do the fitting and finishing, there is no way I can make it any worse than now! But I shall keep in mind the company you have the details of. Not a company in Girvan, South Ayrshire is it?

Fingers crossed I can get the stairs to look as good as yours as they are just so bad at the moment!

Ug_lee

Original Poster:

2,223 posts

210 months

Tuesday 26th May 2015
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Thought I'd update this.

I tried several companies looking at reproducing the wooden carvings, needless to say some responded abut I only got one firm quotation from a firm in York.

For the single volute, 2 new 90deg curved sections and a 10m length of railing matching the profile of what is existing at the moment. I have been quoted £4K. CNC manufacturers seemed only interested in huge quantities and one off costs were a very similar ball park figure.

To be honest I was expecting it to be pricey as my first 18 months of my working life was as a pattern/mould maker apprentice, so can appreciate the time and skill required. Just not sure I can spend that sort of money as I'd probably spend most of my time thinking about the cost rather than the way it looks.

I'm going to look into recreating the rail in a similar method to how Griff Boy has done his and just have the volute done by the outside company. Will mean I'll probably be unable to have it polished wood, but maybe a high gloss polished black will have a similar impact?

Edited by Ug_lee on Tuesday 26th May 10:01

Ug_lee

Original Poster:

2,223 posts

210 months

Thursday 12th November 2015
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I finally started stripping back the years of paint and neglect in our hallway so have come across this

Knew it was too much to ask for just ONE thing to be not bodged in this house!!

Just been filled (badly) and painted over. Think it's possible to cut out and fit a new piece? It's not going to blend perfectly, but might as well be honest about the staircase rather than under 2mm of paint?

Any idea on the type of wood?


Also the base step has seen (much) better days. Looks and feels like some sort of plaster, possible to stair repair that?


The upstairs staircase and the problem of the missing newall post and volute:


I'm thinking of going along these lines as a much cheaper alternative, yet doesn't destroy what is left of the staircase and can always be done more original in the future should funds allow (obviously the newel post will br round and more in keeping with the stairs):


Any ideas much appreciated!


Edited by Uggers on Tuesday 8th August 19:38

FlipFlopGriff

7,144 posts

246 months

Thursday 12th November 2015
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You'd expect a few scrapes and knocks on an old staircase. Personally I'd keep what you have and repair/replace where needed. Should add more value to keep original features as opposed to ripping them out, plus they will last longer as they were built to last unlike the modern throwaway world.
As you say once they've gone, they've gone.
FFG

Ug_lee

Original Poster:

2,223 posts

210 months

Wednesday 25th November 2015
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Slowly making progress. I lost the will with Nitromors and went to a product called KlingStrip, for removing the 10 layers of paint off the balusters.

It's slow, messy but if it's put on right it will take 99% of paint off in one go! You put a thick layer on a sheet of plastic and wrap the baluster with it. Then leave for a day or 2 and peel it off.


I initially bought 10L of the stuff and now bought another 50l to complete the job+plus removing paint from various architrave.

I've got a blacksmith fixing and extending various baluster that were bodged into place. He's also making new 180deg strip pieces so new banister can be run up. I've decided to replace all the banister as what few lengths are decent, are not long enough leading to ugly joins. £300 later I have some custom profile Sapele on the way.frown

This is as far as I have got after 6 days of needle gunning and stripping baluster. It's starting to give me an idea of what it could look like without the 180 years worth of paint on it.



After that time I realised st always rolls down hill so I have continued stripping the top flight and will work my way down to the bottom. The needle gun really worked well stripping this flight in about 6 hours. I'm more limited by the output of the compressor and have to give it time to build up decent pressure every so often.



After living here for 3 years I've come quite good at noticing when something is there in order to hide something bodged, in this case a panel above the 1st floor staircase running to the 2nd floor. Don't have a picture of before but this is the lower floor version:


After I removed the thin panel I came across this:

You can probably imagine what was running through my head when I first clapped eyes on this

Not to worry the previous owners braced the beam though.....

An urgent phone call to my builder was made and he came over to have a look. Props going in 1st thing tomorrow and a thorough look into what can be done to remedy this.

Needless to say that beam (was) huge and virtually no load bearing strength left in it. The floor joists are in mid air. No idea what's holding them up, probably knowing the previous owner, paint!! bd.






Edited by Uggers on Tuesday 15th August 20:11

Blue Oval84

5,276 posts

160 months

Wednesday 25th November 2015
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yikes

Watching with interest to see the outcome! Good luck!