Builder almost brought the house down..literally
Discussion
f
king hell thats bad 
I don't know much if anything about propping walls up but the picture which shows an acrow with a silly little bit of 3x2 above it holding the wall is pathetic. sure for a knock through like that they would use strongboys?
And with regard to the ceiling being flat some just can't be, we are having a steel done soon and its impossible for it to be flat due to the ceiling above being 200mm of concrete.
king hell thats bad I don't know much if anything about propping walls up but the picture which shows an acrow with a silly little bit of 3x2 above it holding the wall is pathetic. sure for a knock through like that they would use strongboys?
And with regard to the ceiling being flat some just can't be, we are having a steel done soon and its impossible for it to be flat due to the ceiling above being 200mm of concrete.
How did they support the wall to get the acrows in place? How do they support the wall between removing acrows to get the beam in place? The support normally pierces the wall above where the beam is then is removed once the beam is secure and wall can rest on it. Not my area of expertise but it doesn't look right.
Get a 2nd opinion.
Get a 2nd opinion.
And as always, expensive does not always mean good.
They should have visited some of his previous projects and spoken to the home owners.
That aside, that is fking awful.
One assumes the builder isn't always on site to keep an eye on the monkeys, as he probably has other more important things to do.
They should have visited some of his previous projects and spoken to the home owners.
That aside, that is f
king awful.One assumes the builder isn't always on site to keep an eye on the monkeys, as he probably has other more important things to do.
Alucidnation said:
One assumes the builder isn't always on site to keep an eye on the monkeys, as he probably has other more important things to do.
You'd bloody hope he won't find anything more important than that mess this week, because if he does the you know they're a proper crap outfit! I had 4 Acro's and strong boys holding up a 2m lintel for a small roof when I did some work at my place, and to be honest the wall plate would have held it for a litttle while anyway, I can't believe anyone would leave that mess thinking it was sufficient.
They are not yet in the house, so no need to move out.
They are hunting down an independent structural engineer (they found one yesterday but he was off on holiday today). The contracts manager has been on site as the directors (and and wife) are on holiday. They are quite a big local firm ( 50 employees on the books) have all the quality marks and HSE awards. They are involved in major projects. It looks like they have sub contracted this job who have then tried to do it as easily and quickly as possible. The conttract manager wants the same cowboys back on site to correct it.
Their issues now are making it safe for work to continue, knowing ASAP what needs to be done to put this right and whether to stop all work on site or get their plumbers and sparks to try to work at the far end of the house to avoid delays and costs.
They are hunting down an independent structural engineer (they found one yesterday but he was off on holiday today). The contracts manager has been on site as the directors (and and wife) are on holiday. They are quite a big local firm ( 50 employees on the books) have all the quality marks and HSE awards. They are involved in major projects. It looks like they have sub contracted this job who have then tried to do it as easily and quickly as possible. The conttract manager wants the same cowboys back on site to correct it.
Their issues now are making it safe for work to continue, knowing ASAP what needs to be done to put this right and whether to stop all work on site or get their plumbers and sparks to try to work at the far end of the house to avoid delays and costs.
Not acceptable - those bits of timber will support nothing. Should be needled through both leafs of the wall, or separate props per leaf is what I did on our house. What are the props sat on (please don't say floorboards and joists!). I'd halt all work until an SE has had a look, and wouldn't let anybody in there at all until then. Neighbour was an SE - he's been called out to a couple of houses locally, after 'skilled building works', one of which subsequently collapsed.
1800s houses don't take kindly to this sort of thing - there could be all sorts of weaknesses/historical hackjobs behind that plasterwork. Good luck!
1800s houses don't take kindly to this sort of thing - there could be all sorts of weaknesses/historical hackjobs behind that plasterwork. Good luck!
Cogcog said:
She has 3 electricians and 5 plumbers on site who are having to be sent home unless they can work at the far end of the house in safety.
Should the Health and Safety Exec. be involved about the way they created this risk to others on the site. They have pictures of the acrows left, but the p;lumber says at one pointt they only had one acrow.
This is what they left:
This is what went on in the week:
Thats wrong on more levels than i can be bothered to explain. It needs propping like, now.Should the Health and Safety Exec. be involved about the way they created this risk to others on the site. They have pictures of the acrows left, but the p;lumber says at one pointt they only had one acrow.
This is what they left:
This is what went on in the week:
Edited by Cogcog on Sunday 23 July 09:34
hairyben said:
How did they support the wall to get the acrows in place? How do they support the wall between removing acrows to get the beam in place? The support normally pierces the wall above where the beam is then is removed once the beam is secure and wall can rest on it. Not my area of expertise but it doesn't look right.
Get a 2nd opinion.
That is the question!Get a 2nd opinion.
Cogcog said:
They are not yet in the house, so no need to move out.
They are hunting down an independent structural engineer (they found one yesterday but he was off on holiday today). The contracts manager has been on site as the directors (and and wife) are on holiday. They are quite a big local firm ( 50 employees on the books) have all the quality marks and HSE awards. They are involved in major projects. It looks like they have sub contracted this job who have then tried to do it as easily and quickly as possible. The conttract manager wants the same cowboys back on site to correct it.
Their issues now are making it safe for work to continue, knowing ASAP what needs to be done to put this right and whether to stop all work on site or get their plumbers and sparks to try to work at the far end of the house to avoid delays and costs.
All the accreditation and schemes can sadly count for nothing very oftenThey are hunting down an independent structural engineer (they found one yesterday but he was off on holiday today). The contracts manager has been on site as the directors (and and wife) are on holiday. They are quite a big local firm ( 50 employees on the books) have all the quality marks and HSE awards. They are involved in major projects. It looks like they have sub contracted this job who have then tried to do it as easily and quickly as possible. The conttract manager wants the same cowboys back on site to correct it.
Their issues now are making it safe for work to continue, knowing ASAP what needs to be done to put this right and whether to stop all work on site or get their plumbers and sparks to try to work at the far end of the house to avoid delays and costs.
Are the plumbers/sparks yours or theirs? Its normally quite difficult to work in one part only without free reign.
I've currently got a 1.5m section of outside wall missing to knock through to a new porch. there are 3 strongboys outside and 3 acrows and a large 3x2 on the inside holding it all up. what's in the OPs pics looks hugely insufficient for what's being done.
As for the beams up / beams down thing, its strange how the builders try to get away with the "easy" beams down option. if the customer wants the beam up then they just charge more for the time and effort needed to do it that way.
As for the beams up / beams down thing, its strange how the builders try to get away with the "easy" beams down option. if the customer wants the beam up then they just charge more for the time and effort needed to do it that way.
hairyben said:
All the accreditation and schemes can sadly count for nothing very often
Are the plumbers/sparks yours or theirs? Its normally quite difficult to work in one part only without free reign.
The other trades are hers. The house is large (11 beds over 3 stories plus cellar wher the ;lumbers are installing the new boiler) with the main (stone) stairs well away from the problem areas.Are the plumbers/sparks yours or theirs? Its normally quite difficult to work in one part only without free reign.
I wasnt suggestung the accreditations had any sway unless it was by the threat of losing them. they have a H&E accrediation for example.
ikarl said:
ikarl said:
Genuine question, if they have really fked the house to the point doors and windows can't open/close, how fixable is it?
Anyone...ked the house to the point doors and windows can't open/close, how fixable is it? Quick answer - it isn't.
Mortar falling out from lintels elsewhere isn't good. If each opening in the walls has shifted to the point that windows and doors are binding, that means stuff (mortar beds,bricks,lintels) have moved, cracked, disconnected. Gravity is one thing, lateral movement is another, particularly on an old property that structurally can literally just be barely hanging in there before you take a sledgehammer to it.
After the new steels are in and all is supported properly you could possibly grind out mortar beds and resin in lengths of rebar to stop things upstairs moving further - but would you trust it if it's shifted sideways as well as simply downwards? Full set of windows and doors all coming out to clearance the openings enough to get them to operate correctly too - or replace the lot.
Short of a full on rebuild I don't know...this is where insurance comes in - I'm not an engineer. If I was, would I risk my insurance by suggesting bodging bits of rebar into cracked upstairs walls to try and hold them together - no I wouldn't. Given that windows and doors have stopped working, it could be that demolition is the only (insurance backed) option. Good news that it's a large company used to commercial work - their insurance should be cast iron guaranteed to pay out, particularly as they supplied the SE.
Zero movement above the new opening is the aim, and near enough achievable if you use enough props and support things right. I've done knock-throughs on my own houses, biggest I've done was about 3.6m clear span, and I had about ten props in there, with hacked up scaffolding planks top and bottom, not scrap wood more suited to firewood propping up both leaves. I've watched builders doing similar work and haven't seen anything approaching those pics before.
I can't offer any expert insight, but when we had the back wall of our house removed for the predictable anthracite bi-folds I was stting bricks until the beam was in and verbally okayed by building control.
I'm going to get flamed for this no doubt, but don't the fire brigade have a potential role in helping to stabilise properties at risk of collapse?
tting bricks until the beam was in and verbally okayed by building control.I'm going to get flamed for this no doubt, but don't the fire brigade have a potential role in helping to stabilise properties at risk of collapse?
hornetrider said:
Jesus Christ! That looks negligent to me!
Do these builders come with recommendations or are they subcontracting the work?
That's appallingly shoddy and appalling lack of respect. Have you paid anything up front?
Gassing Station | Homes, Gardens and DIY | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff