Builder almost brought the house down..literally
Discussion
Sheepshanks said:
Too Late said:
If you do trust them, i would be expressing to them that i will not be paying the full amount agreed before work started
They seem to accepted they've messed up - arguing about paying before they've even started the remedial work doesn't strike me a good idea.mfmman said:
Sheepshanks said:
Too Late said:
If you do trust them, i would be expressing to them that i will not be paying the full amount agreed before work started
They seem to accepted they've messed up - arguing about paying before they've even started the remedial work doesn't strike me a good idea.& they perhaps should be made aware of those costs incurred.....for reference later ;-)
Where do Building Control come into this, if anywhere? The house owner is going to want all of this work signed off so she has the right documents should she sell in the future. Do BC have to approve the remedial works?
What about the future? Who pays if the cracks start again in a couple of years? Isn't there a risk her house insurers are going to decline a claim if they find out there was such a substantial problem & they weren't notified?
What about the future? Who pays if the cracks start again in a couple of years? Isn't there a risk her house insurers are going to decline a claim if they find out there was such a substantial problem & they weren't notified?
davgar said:
We are also in a building project. Builders today knocked thru from front room to back room.
Left the following supports for a 4metre gap.
2 rows of 5 supports
is this sufficient /safe
What exactly are the Acros supported on at the bottom? Appears that they go past the floor joists, but where to? Looks like a suspended timber floor with some sort of compacted base underneath.Left the following supports for a 4metre gap.
2 rows of 5 supports
is this sufficient /safe
OP - I haven't digested every word here but a couple of thoughts and observations:
From my memory of Third a Party Liability cover for builders it excludes the property being worked on so there'll be no joy there. With th builder having 50 employees it's moe likely he'll have Cntractors All Risks cover (Ask!).
This will more than likely go legal eventually. You therefore need contemporaneous evidence. Get contact details and statements from those on site at the time as they'll swear blind later there were sufficient Acrows etc. Get some sort of written acceptance that the builders caused the problems and have agreed to put it right at their expense. Suggest you have a site meeting with all parties present and get agreement to record it and have it transcribed. This will be invaluable!
Lastly do report this matter urgently to the HSE. Work of this standard endangers lives and they will want to know about this 'near miss'. Their investigations might lead to fines/convictions etc and ought to lead to an improvement in their working methods. So that ought to improve things for the future. It will also provide you with further Independant evidence to aid your case.
Record everything with photos notes of conversations etc. Unless the builders are very very cooperative this will go legal unfortunately.
From my memory of Third a Party Liability cover for builders it excludes the property being worked on so there'll be no joy there. With th builder having 50 employees it's moe likely he'll have Cntractors All Risks cover (Ask!).
This will more than likely go legal eventually. You therefore need contemporaneous evidence. Get contact details and statements from those on site at the time as they'll swear blind later there were sufficient Acrows etc. Get some sort of written acceptance that the builders caused the problems and have agreed to put it right at their expense. Suggest you have a site meeting with all parties present and get agreement to record it and have it transcribed. This will be invaluable!
Lastly do report this matter urgently to the HSE. Work of this standard endangers lives and they will want to know about this 'near miss'. Their investigations might lead to fines/convictions etc and ought to lead to an improvement in their working methods. So that ought to improve things for the future. It will also provide you with further Independant evidence to aid your case.
Record everything with photos notes of conversations etc. Unless the builders are very very cooperative this will go legal unfortunately.
some are on the floor joists. most are on the earth underneath.
making me worry now
making me worry now
SAB888 said:
What exactly are the Acros supported on at the bottom? Appears that they go past the floor joists, but where to? Looks like a suspended timber floor with some sort of compacted base underneath.
t. You can probably push them over with your hand.
Update:
Independent engineer is largely agreeing with the builders engineer except he wants all of the cracks exposing to 600mm either side, including old ones which may have lengthened or widened after this incident. He alos noted that the acrowe props are still haphazzardly placed and properly installed. He pointed out that this was a disaster waiting to happen and that had there been a death then it is so poor done and so poorly managed that manslaughter charges may have followed.Between the engineers they have given specific instructions on the installation of the steels, including the dry-packing and the pad stones, and the way the needles and props must be removed.
An engineer is coming out Thursday night to look at the padstones (they had not installed the specified pad stones) steels and the dry packing before the props are removed.
The company boss was due on site Thursday but is now saying he won't be back from holiday. Lovely.
We are keeping contemperaneous notes of eveything and putting everything in writing after each discussion so that they know what has to be done and how. I have started to compile a list of their failures (e.g. nobody from the company visited the site that week, the padstones were the wrong ones, the site wasn't made safe, unused acrowes were lying on site and they actually had the right boards outside, but didnt use them.).
Independent engineer is largely agreeing with the builders engineer except he wants all of the cracks exposing to 600mm either side, including old ones which may have lengthened or widened after this incident. He alos noted that the acrowe props are still haphazzardly placed and properly installed. He pointed out that this was a disaster waiting to happen and that had there been a death then it is so poor done and so poorly managed that manslaughter charges may have followed.Between the engineers they have given specific instructions on the installation of the steels, including the dry-packing and the pad stones, and the way the needles and props must be removed.
An engineer is coming out Thursday night to look at the padstones (they had not installed the specified pad stones) steels and the dry packing before the props are removed.
The company boss was due on site Thursday but is now saying he won't be back from holiday. Lovely.
We are keeping contemperaneous notes of eveything and putting everything in writing after each discussion so that they know what has to be done and how. I have started to compile a list of their failures (e.g. nobody from the company visited the site that week, the padstones were the wrong ones, the site wasn't made safe, unused acrowes were lying on site and they actually had the right boards outside, but didnt use them.).
Edited by Cogcog on Wednesday 26th July 09:41
Mr Pointy said:
Where do Building Control come into this, if anywhere? The house owner is going to want all of this work signed off so she has the right documents should she sell in the future. Do BC have to approve the remedial works?
What about the future? Who pays if the cracks start again in a couple of years? Isn't there a risk her house insurers are going to decline a claim if they find out there was such a substantial problem & they weren't notified?
We have been through that with the engineer. He says that if the repairs are carried out as instructed there wont be any issues.What about the future? Who pays if the cracks start again in a couple of years? Isn't there a risk her house insurers are going to decline a claim if they find out there was such a substantial problem & they weren't notified?
andy43 said:
Give a boy a mans job... hope he can get that broom out...
If both SEs are happy (and are insurance backed) that it can all be resined and bolted back together to prevent future movement then it's very good news.
What I've seen done is each and every crack exposed, and all the mortar beds ground out by an inch and then filled with stainless threaded bar glued in with resin across each crack. Looked like a complete botch job but did seem to work. Anything even resembling a crack needs uncovering, outside as well if it's rendered. No idea what rest of house is like or how many cracked areas there are but full replastering could be an option rather than patch repairs to each room, even if you need to contribute a bit extra?
If doors and windows can be pulled back that's also positive provided you're happy everything will be as expected once done.
This is why tradesmen should never be left alone by themselves too long
Here's Fireman Sam now...just in the nick of time by the looks of it...
This is pretty much what the 2 engineers are saying. Expose it all, strap it and glue it all, replaster the lot. If both SEs are happy (and are insurance backed) that it can all be resined and bolted back together to prevent future movement then it's very good news.
What I've seen done is each and every crack exposed, and all the mortar beds ground out by an inch and then filled with stainless threaded bar glued in with resin across each crack. Looked like a complete botch job but did seem to work. Anything even resembling a crack needs uncovering, outside as well if it's rendered. No idea what rest of house is like or how many cracked areas there are but full replastering could be an option rather than patch repairs to each room, even if you need to contribute a bit extra?
If doors and windows can be pulled back that's also positive provided you're happy everything will be as expected once done.
This is why tradesmen should never be left alone by themselves too long
Here's Fireman Sam now...just in the nick of time by the looks of it...
Edited by andy43 on Tuesday 25th July 09:06
Edited by andy43 on Tuesday 25th July 09:06
There one window on the groundfloor which has moved noticeably, but it looks like it is due to them passing the steel through it and draging it on the cill becaus ethey only had 2 men on site, pulling the old frame with it and popping the sealant, which then fell out. They also damaged the window frame and cill doping that. The plumber said he heard them complaining they need more men to lift the steel abd roped in their delivery driver to help.
hadenough! said:
alfie2244 said:
hadenough! said:
alfie2244 said:
PositronicRay said:
NoIP said:
alfie2244 said:
Still not heard from OP as regards any contract or who is supervising / managing works on behalf of his daughter.
I have visions of the OP going to the house to get some more footage but after hearing some odd cracking noises and the sound of falling mortar dust he's now trapped inside, unable to open any door or window. As a builder for most of my life I worked both with and without contracts many times. For a job of this size I would have wanted to use a JCT form of contract as they actually protect both parties not just the builder and was always much happier discussing problems, variations etc with a professional rather than directly with the client........I even had one say to me "well my postman said............!!
If you want a professional job in this type of work then you should employ a professional that wouldn't mind signing a contract..after all it's not a patio or similar but knocking down structural walls on probably the most expensive item that you will ever own / buy.
http://www.sweetandmaxwell.co.uk/jct%2Dhomeowner%2...
Edited by alfie2244 on Monday 24th July 21:16
I'd never heard of these contracts but will now download one and ensure any builder I take on will sign it.
Mark Benson said:
hadenough! said:
alfie2244 said:
hadenough! said:
alfie2244 said:
PositronicRay said:
NoIP said:
alfie2244 said:
Still not heard from OP as regards any contract or who is supervising / managing works on behalf of his daughter.
I have visions of the OP going to the house to get some more footage but after hearing some odd cracking noises and the sound of falling mortar dust he's now trapped inside, unable to open any door or window. As a builder for most of my life I worked both with and without contracts many times. For a job of this size I would have wanted to use a JCT form of contract as they actually protect both parties not just the builder and was always much happier discussing problems, variations etc with a professional rather than directly with the client........I even had one say to me "well my postman said............!!
If you want a professional job in this type of work then you should employ a professional that wouldn't mind signing a contract..after all it's not a patio or similar but knocking down structural walls on probably the most expensive item that you will ever own / buy.
http://www.sweetandmaxwell.co.uk/jct%2Dhomeowner%2...
Edited by alfie2244 on Monday 24th July 21:16
I'd never heard of these contracts but will now download one and ensure any builder I take on will sign it.
A contract can be a double edged sword though, a builder may think you don't trust him, which I don't really understand as it protects them as much as the client, but when you look at what it covers, for £30ish, they really do take the sting out of any arguments / disputes should any arise as they often do unfortunately in the construction industry.
By the same token I don't think the contract should be used as a stick to beat the builder with at every single event, bits of paper flying everywhere can make for an awkward working relationship, there has to be a balance..cups of tea can work wonders sometimes.....but on larger / complicated contracts even as the builder I would be insisting on a contract of some sort rather than having major rows / workmanship etc about money (usually my profit element) at the end of the job.
Sorry for threadrift OP and pleased to see you appear to have things under control now.
eta I should have stated there are very many variations of these contracts available if needed.
http://www.rics.org/uk/shop/contracts/JCT-contract...
Edited by alfie2244 on Wednesday 26th July 11:01
Cogcog said:
including the dry-packing and the pad stones,
We are keeping contemperaneous notes of eveything and putting everything in writing after each discussion so that they know what has to be done and how. I have started to compile a list of their failures (e.g. nobody from the company visited the site that week, the padstones were the wrong ones,
regarding the padstones, concentrate more on how they were in stalled and the support/grout/packing. Most padstones are over specced a long way - what they rest on and how they've been installed is a much more common area of failure. I've never seen a failure from too small a padstone being used.We are keeping contemperaneous notes of eveything and putting everything in writing after each discussion so that they know what has to be done and how. I have started to compile a list of their failures (e.g. nobody from the company visited the site that week, the padstones were the wrong ones,
TA14 said:
Cogcog said:
including the dry-packing and the pad stones,
We are keeping contemperaneous notes of eveything and putting everything in writing after each discussion so that they know what has to be done and how. I have started to compile a list of their failures (e.g. nobody from the company visited the site that week, the padstones were the wrong ones,
regarding the padstones, concentrate more on how they were in stalled and the support/grout/packing. Most padstones are over specced a long way - what they rest on and how they've been installed is a much more common area of failure. I've never seen a failure from too small a padstone being used.We are keeping contemperaneous notes of eveything and putting everything in writing after each discussion so that they know what has to be done and how. I have started to compile a list of their failures (e.g. nobody from the company visited the site that week, the padstones were the wrong ones,
alfie2244 said:
Wise decision IMO especially if structural works are involved but I do realise many builders would be reluctant to sign a contract . I am not in the business any longer but from what I can gather getting good builders / tradesmen (that are available) is difficult enough as it is.
A contract can be a double edged sword though, a builder may think you don't trust him, which I don't really understand as it protects them as much as the client, but when you look at what it covers, for £30ish, they really do take the sting out of any arguments / disputes should any arise as they often do unfortunately in the construction industry.
By the same token I don't think the contract should be used as a stick to beat the builder with at every single event, bits of paper flying everywhere can make for an awkward working relationship, there has to be a balance..cups of tea can work wonders sometimes.....but on larger / complicated contracts even as the builder I would be insisting on a contract of some sort rather than having major rows / workmanship etc about money (usually my profit element) at the end of the job.
Sorry for threadrift OP and pleased to see you appear to have things under control now.
eta I should have stated there are very many variations of these contracts available if needed.
http://www.rics.org/uk/shop/contracts/JCT-contract...
Noted. I don't generally chase people unless I feel they're deliberately skiving, we all have enough stress without adding to it and mistakes can occur. Often it's what's done about mistakes that marks out a good tradesman from a bad one.A contract can be a double edged sword though, a builder may think you don't trust him, which I don't really understand as it protects them as much as the client, but when you look at what it covers, for £30ish, they really do take the sting out of any arguments / disputes should any arise as they often do unfortunately in the construction industry.
By the same token I don't think the contract should be used as a stick to beat the builder with at every single event, bits of paper flying everywhere can make for an awkward working relationship, there has to be a balance..cups of tea can work wonders sometimes.....but on larger / complicated contracts even as the builder I would be insisting on a contract of some sort rather than having major rows / workmanship etc about money (usually my profit element) at the end of the job.
Sorry for threadrift OP and pleased to see you appear to have things under control now.
eta I should have stated there are very many variations of these contracts available if needed.
http://www.rics.org/uk/shop/contracts/JCT-contract...
Edited by alfie2244 on Wednesday 26th July 11:01
We've gone for one of the area's well-liked bigger outfits so I don't foresee too many problems but a contract at least gives us both a place to start from.
They also asked us to get full architects drawings and structural calcs before they would quote which i took as a good sign.
Cogcog said:
There one window on the groundfloor which has moved noticeably, but it looks like it is due to them passing the steel through it and draging it on the cill becaus ethey only had 2 men on site, pulling the old frame with it and popping the sealant, which then fell out. They also damaged the window frame and cill doping that. The plumber said he heard them complaining they need more men to lift the steel abd roped in their delivery driver to help.
F cking animals. This is what pees me off about tradespersons - you've done what you would expect would be the sensible thing and got a large-ish company with landlines, offices and full time employees in, and the important bit is still performed by (un)trained primates. And a passing Yodel employee.You read about dashcam footage during 100mph roadtests after an oil change - hidden cameras during building works could be just as enlightening.
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