Builder almost brought the house down..literally
Discussion
hornetrider said:
Cogcog said:
Edited by Cogcog on Sunday 23 July 09:34
Jesus Christ! That looks negligent to me!
Wouldn't be surprised in the quote they asked for tethers for the horses they arrived on and somewhere to hang up their Cowboy Stetsons!
I wouldn't dare even go in there, let alone try to open any doors or windows. The fact that they won't open means that they're holding the building up!
Buy a good video camera and make a video like these to upload to YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDqQJrmvj9M
Buy a good video camera and make a video like these to upload to YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDqQJrmvj9M
As I live in a house dating from around 1860, I'm of the opinion that they aren't suitable for the kind of modern "opening up" conversions that people want, unless you go the whole hog and basically have it as an outside shell with a full steels construction skeleton holding the interior and exterior together.
Good luck.
Good luck.
andy43 said:
Honestly?
Quick answer - it isn't.
Mortar falling out from lintels elsewhere isn't good. If each opening in the walls has shifted to the point that windows and doors are binding, that means stuff (mortar beds,bricks,lintels) have moved, cracked, disconnected. Gravity is one thing, lateral movement is another, particularly on an old property that structurally can literally just be barely hanging in there before you take a sledgehammer to it.
After the new steels are in and all is supported properly you could possibly grind out mortar beds and resin in lengths of rebar to stop things upstairs moving further - but would you trust it if it's shifted sideways as well as simply downwards? Full set of windows and doors all coming out to clearance the openings enough to get them to operate correctly too - or replace the lot.
Short of a full on rebuild I don't know...this is where insurance comes in - I'm not an engineer. If I was, would I risk my insurance by suggesting bodging bits of rebar into cracked upstairs walls to try and hold them together - no I wouldn't. Given that windows and doors have stopped working, it could be that demolition is the only (insurance backed) option. Good news that it's a large company used to commercial work - their insurance should be cast iron guaranteed to pay out, particularly as they supplied the SE.
Zero movement above the new opening is the aim, and near enough achievable if you use enough props and support things right. I've done knock-throughs on my own houses, biggest I've done was about 3.6m clear span, and I had about ten props in there, with hacked up scaffolding planks top and bottom, not scrap wood more suited to firewood propping up both leaves. I've watched builders doing similar work and haven't seen anything approaching those pics before.
^ What he said. The only thing that's keeping the house from being a pile of rubble right now is the strength of the mortar between the bricks that don't have any support. Given the photo evidence of the cracks upstairs then it's clear there's been significant movement already. If it's true what you've said about the doors and windows can't be opened and it's not an exaggeration then you're already past the point of no return as that indicates there's been lateral movement which in turn means the structural integrity of the building has been severely compromised.Quick answer - it isn't.
Mortar falling out from lintels elsewhere isn't good. If each opening in the walls has shifted to the point that windows and doors are binding, that means stuff (mortar beds,bricks,lintels) have moved, cracked, disconnected. Gravity is one thing, lateral movement is another, particularly on an old property that structurally can literally just be barely hanging in there before you take a sledgehammer to it.
After the new steels are in and all is supported properly you could possibly grind out mortar beds and resin in lengths of rebar to stop things upstairs moving further - but would you trust it if it's shifted sideways as well as simply downwards? Full set of windows and doors all coming out to clearance the openings enough to get them to operate correctly too - or replace the lot.
Short of a full on rebuild I don't know...this is where insurance comes in - I'm not an engineer. If I was, would I risk my insurance by suggesting bodging bits of rebar into cracked upstairs walls to try and hold them together - no I wouldn't. Given that windows and doors have stopped working, it could be that demolition is the only (insurance backed) option. Good news that it's a large company used to commercial work - their insurance should be cast iron guaranteed to pay out, particularly as they supplied the SE.
Zero movement above the new opening is the aim, and near enough achievable if you use enough props and support things right. I've done knock-throughs on my own houses, biggest I've done was about 3.6m clear span, and I had about ten props in there, with hacked up scaffolding planks top and bottom, not scrap wood more suited to firewood propping up both leaves. I've watched builders doing similar work and haven't seen anything approaching those pics before.
You're taking a HUGE risk being inside the property with it in that state - it could collapse at any moment. If you're feeling brave then get as much photo and video evidence as you can, as quickly as possible then GTF out of there and let your buildings insurance company deal with it. I wouldn't be surprised if you struggle to get a structural engineer to even enter the building. Depending on the severity of the non-functioning doors and windows, demolition may well be the only solution.
We always use beams through the wall, then knock out enough for the rsj/lintel only.
Install whatever is going in and then drop the wall.
Rarely get cracks or any movement above.
No real pics on this phone, one from my house:
Start of the pins and acros, we put 2 more in after this.
Finished:
Install whatever is going in and then drop the wall.
Rarely get cracks or any movement above.
No real pics on this phone, one from my house:
Start of the pins and acros, we put 2 more in after this.
Finished:
astroarcadia said:
Your daughter and her partner are saying the right things.
Let engineer visit site, issue report, discuss with directors on their return.
Sounds like the builder has subbed out this element of the work and it's gone woefully wrong. Also sounds like they will put right at their expense with their own labour.
Your daughter walking around the site with a baby in a sling is as much her responsibility as theirs - no building site is safe for children.
If she has commissioned the other trades, she might want to consider getting them offsite as well, for their own safety.Let engineer visit site, issue report, discuss with directors on their return.
Sounds like the builder has subbed out this element of the work and it's gone woefully wrong. Also sounds like they will put right at their expense with their own labour.
Your daughter walking around the site with a baby in a sling is as much her responsibility as theirs - no building site is safe for children.
Vaud said:
astroarcadia said:
Your daughter and her partner are saying the right things.
Let engineer visit site, issue report, discuss with directors on their return.
Sounds like the builder has subbed out this element of the work and it's gone woefully wrong. Also sounds like they will put right at their expense with their own labour.
Your daughter walking around the site with a baby in a sling is as much her responsibility as theirs - no building site is safe for children.
If she has commissioned the other trades, she might want to consider getting them offsite as well, for their own safety.Let engineer visit site, issue report, discuss with directors on their return.
Sounds like the builder has subbed out this element of the work and it's gone woefully wrong. Also sounds like they will put right at their expense with their own labour.
Your daughter walking around the site with a baby in a sling is as much her responsibility as theirs - no building site is safe for children.
pghstochaj said:
I hope she advised her insurer of the work before it started. They tend to want to know about work of this type before it goes ahead.
Indeed. However in this sort of work/contract you would expect the contractor to be liable for insurance for the durationTBH I've seen far worse cracks, but the position of them and the windows not opening is a serious worry. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if the SE turns up tomorrow and condemns the whole elevation
Were the HSE notified of the works? I'm fairly certain that although any demolition work used to be notifiable, the Regs were changed but a written statement of how works will be carried out must be submitted. (I'm sure someone will clarify this.) Also, what about the Building Control inspector?
In older houses with lime mortar, after all these years the bricks are effectively just sitting together with packed sand in-between, you need to use a very generous number of props and be very thorough with support etc.
I remember on one of the DIY SOS or resto programs they nearly collapsed an old lime mortared house when knocking through.
I remember on one of the DIY SOS or resto programs they nearly collapsed an old lime mortared house when knocking through.
This sort of thing is now covered by temporary works
http://www.hse.gov.uk/construction/faq-temporary-w...
See 'do i need to need to provide calcs for every temp works situation'
http://www.hse.gov.uk/construction/faq-temporary-w...
See 'do i need to need to provide calcs for every temp works situation'
I'd be talking to your insurers about this now and put something in writing to the builder, who your contract is with, telling them of your very real concerns and holding them liable.
Keep all photographs and correspondence.
What the builder does with his sub-contractor is his problem and shouldn't be your concern.
I would think your insurers would wish to appoint a surveyor to look at the work and report back.
If you have a mortgage, involve them too in all this.
Oh and stay safe!
Finally, the builder has caused this mess and the builder must put it right !
Keep all photographs and correspondence.
What the builder does with his sub-contractor is his problem and shouldn't be your concern.
I would think your insurers would wish to appoint a surveyor to look at the work and report back.
If you have a mortgage, involve them too in all this.
Oh and stay safe!
Finally, the builder has caused this mess and the builder must put it right !
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