Builder almost brought the house down..literally

Builder almost brought the house down..literally

Author
Discussion

dudleybloke

19,717 posts

185 months

Monday 24th July 2017
quotequote all
Those pics are frightening.
I'm amazed that anyone who has ever worked in the building trade could ever consider those supports as sufficient.
As others have stated, don't let them fob you off onto the subbies, the company you contracted has liability to you.
It might be worth checking the company details, debts etc online and also find out who they are insured by.
Unfortunately I think this could be a long hard fight to put right.

alfie2244

11,292 posts

187 months

Monday 24th July 2017
quotequote all
Still not heard from OP as regards any contract or who is supervising / managing works on behalf of his daughter.

rival38

485 posts

144 months

Monday 24th July 2017
quotequote all
I did manage to persuade our insurers to continue cover for some fairly serious structural repairs - even while to house was briefly empty. There was a lot of reluctance to cover the structure at all during the works, but having examined the main contractors liability insurance / schedule of works and SE specifications they relented. They were adamant that they would not cover the money spent until the work was finished and signed off by the SE, which I understand. I think by then they were pretty confident the contractors insurance ultimately had their back anyway.

They did suggest I beefed up our cover for alternative rental (in case to worst happened) which IIRC was a hundred an odd £100 one off premium which would apparently provide like for like rental for up to 60 months! seemed a complete bargain considering their earlier reluctance.

I imagine that in this case it is going to be the main contractor, either via their own insurance or their own expense who has to put this right.

Best wishes to the OP and his daughter for a timely resolution. It looks like an utter nightmare.

Edited by rival38 on Monday 24th July 20:11

NoIP

559 posts

83 months

Monday 24th July 2017
quotequote all
alfie2244 said:
Still not heard from OP as regards any contract or who is supervising / managing works on behalf of his daughter.
I have visions of the OP going to the house to get some more footage but after hearing some odd cracking noises and the sound of falling mortar dust he's now trapped inside, unable to open any door or window. hehe

PositronicRay

26,952 posts

182 months

Monday 24th July 2017
quotequote all
NoIP said:
alfie2244 said:
Still not heard from OP as regards any contract or who is supervising / managing works on behalf of his daughter.
I have visions of the OP going to the house to get some more footage but after hearing some odd cracking noises and the sound of falling mortar dust he's now trapped inside, unable to open any door or window. hehe
Probably just doesn't want to prejudice a possible claim/case.

alfie2244

11,292 posts

187 months

Monday 24th July 2017
quotequote all
PositronicRay said:
NoIP said:
alfie2244 said:
Still not heard from OP as regards any contract or who is supervising / managing works on behalf of his daughter.
I have visions of the OP going to the house to get some more footage but after hearing some odd cracking noises and the sound of falling mortar dust he's now trapped inside, unable to open any door or window. hehe
Probably just doesn't want to prejudice a possible claim/case.
If so he may do well to delete pics or even ask for thread delete if that's possible. Hope it isn't the case here but It never ceases to amaze me how many private jobs are done without a proper form of contract or project manager / professional representing the client in place.

hadenough!

3,785 posts

259 months

Monday 24th July 2017
quotequote all
alfie2244 said:
PositronicRay said:
NoIP said:
alfie2244 said:
Still not heard from OP as regards any contract or who is supervising / managing works on behalf of his daughter.
I have visions of the OP going to the house to get some more footage but after hearing some odd cracking noises and the sound of falling mortar dust he's now trapped inside, unable to open any door or window. hehe
Probably just doesn't want to prejudice a possible claim/case.
If so he may do well to delete pics or even ask for thread delete if that's possible. Hope it isn't the case here but It never ceases to amaze me how many private jobs are done without a proper form of contract or project manager / professional representing the client in place.
Have you ever tried to get a domestic builder to sign a contract?


alfie2244

11,292 posts

187 months

Monday 24th July 2017
quotequote all
hadenough! said:
alfie2244 said:
PositronicRay said:
NoIP said:
alfie2244 said:
Still not heard from OP as regards any contract or who is supervising / managing works on behalf of his daughter.
I have visions of the OP going to the house to get some more footage but after hearing some odd cracking noises and the sound of falling mortar dust he's now trapped inside, unable to open any door or window. hehe
Probably just doesn't want to prejudice a possible claim/case.
If so he may do well to delete pics or even ask for thread delete if that's possible. Hope it isn't the case here but It never ceases to amaze me how many private jobs are done without a proper form of contract or project manager / professional representing the client in place.
Have you ever tried to get a domestic builder to sign a contract?
A good one would...... however "they employed a large and reputable (and expensive) local builder".....from OP.

As a builder for most of my life I worked both with and without contracts many times. For a job of this size I would have wanted to use a JCT form of contract as they actually protect both parties not just the builder and was always much happier discussing problems, variations etc with a professional rather than directly with the client........I even had one say to me "well my postman said............!!

If you want a professional job in this type of work then you should employ a professional that wouldn't mind signing a contract..after all it's not a patio or similar but knocking down structural walls on probably the most expensive item that you will ever own / buy.

http://www.sweetandmaxwell.co.uk/jct%2Dhomeowner%2...

Edited by alfie2244 on Monday 24th July 21:16

SS9

373 posts

158 months

Monday 24th July 2017
quotequote all
I remember being nervous watching my builder install props, pull down our wall and subsequently install steel beams. Obligatory pictures below. We didn't get any obvious movement/cracks upstairs so he got something right. House built in 1899 but I think the part he was working on is slightly newer. OP hope things get sorted for you - pictures/commentary sounds v concerning.






NoIP

559 posts

83 months

Tuesday 25th July 2017
quotequote all
So, what's happened to Cogcog? yikes

Cogcog

Original Poster:

11,800 posts

234 months

Tuesday 25th July 2017
quotequote all
Morning, update after a long day yesterday.

Drove down overnight to meet the builder's contracts manager on site at 9am. We cancelled the 5 plumbers, 2 electricians and a carpenter who were due on site because of the risk of a collapse.

They admitted the faults completely, admitted using sub-contractors and that they did not visit the site to check on the work all week. There were unused acrow props lying in the room, a pile of boards for the acrows lying outside (unused) and precarious loose masonary everywhere.They had even taken sand and cement from the ground workers puting in edgings for the driveway having turned up without materials.

Their structural engineer came out at midday and told them what needed to be done to make the site safe. They had even failed to follow his spec on the pad-stones,They pinned the wall from above in the bedroom with sections of RSJ with acrows through the floors and are now removing the steel they had inserted as it was 18 inches too low ( they had told my daughter it couldnt be put up any higher, leaving her with a 2 foot step in her ceiling). Once pinned we can allow our trades in at the opposite end of the house as long a sthey do not work or pass through the kitchen/diner. Once the two steels are back in they are hacking the plaster off the walls on both floors above 600mm either side of all the cracks so that the engineer can see the damage and say what kind of stitching may be required. they are using some sort of special screws to fix the door and window frames in place and prevent movement.

We got our own engineer in during the evening, who has expert witness experience. He agreed with the builder's engineer except he wants the plaster off some old cracks adjacent to the new cracks which look like they have lengthened and widened.

Their engineer is now on holiday so we have insisted they pause once the plaster is off for our engineer to visit, inspect and specify the repairs, with a further pause before plastering for another engineer's visit to make sure it has been done as per spec.

Insult to injury, they had slid the steels through the window kitchen, caught the frame and broken the corner off the sash window frame, and dislodged the window from the frame.

The labourer turned up in the evening with his wife and kids in his new 4x4 asking if he could have his shovel and broom back. We suspect that he is the dim witted son of the big boss who is on holiday who is the one who quoting on the job and briefed the enginerer and the 2 labourers who made this mess. I am told the original sorry cre were driving the company van and the dim witted labourer was wearing their company sweat shirt, so I suspect he may not be a sub contractor. His shovel and broom are where the sun don't shine.

Our enginer has written a very strongly worded email about the risks associated with not supporting the wall (at one point the plumbers say they had just one acrow in place), pointed out the H&S implications and the potential for a manslaughter charge had it collapsed on someone.

They expect to be hacking off by the end of this week.

My daughter says he has no intention of paying his bill ( about £6,700 plus VAT). I suspect a better line may be to deduct all her costs of trades sitting around, the engineer's costs and the cost of her rent for a month because she cannot now move straight to the new house a splanned (she completes on the sale of her house at the start of September and this has put her back about 2 weeks) which won't leave much anyway but perhaps to pay the cost of the original engineer's drawings and the steels to appear reasonable should they take her to court (which I don';t think they would do as they are a well respected local company who would not want any attention drawn to this incident).

The boss gets back from holiday on Friday.


Cogcog

Original Poster:

11,800 posts

234 months

Tuesday 25th July 2017
quotequote all
dudleybloke said:
Those pics are frightening.
I'm amazed that anyone who has ever worked in the building trade could ever consider those supports as sufficient.
As others have stated, don't let them fob you off onto the subbies, the company you contracted has liability to you.
It might be worth checking the company details, debts etc online and also find out who they are insured by.
Unfortunately I think this could be a long hard fight to put right.


I got their accounts out, about £400k in cash at the end of 2016.

Gtom

1,593 posts

131 months

Tuesday 25th July 2017
quotequote all
Whilst it is bad, very bad in fact, some of the responses are ridiculous. Call the fire brigade?!?!

I'm looking at the photos on my phone so I can't see all the detail but the wall did all its moving before that steel went in. Unless the pad stones it's sat on somehow fall out, the steel will hold the wall so long as it has been packed with slate.
It looks like a 9" solid wall so it will have stretchers and this will hold the side of the wall where there isn't an RSJ.
NOT ideal and NOT how I would do it BUT it's not falling down.

Assuming it has floor joists above each room going in to each skin of the wall the usual way is to support the floors with acro's no more 12" away from the wall. This would allow the steel to go tight up to the ceiling.

mikeiow

5,285 posts

129 months

Tuesday 25th July 2017
quotequote all
Glad to hear you're making progress & all is safely in hand.....sounds like you have taken a sensible route. Hilarious that the fella wanted his broom: I can imagine that conversation!!

andy43

9,546 posts

253 months

Tuesday 25th July 2017
quotequote all
Give a boy a mans job... hope he can get that broom out...
If both SEs are happy (and are insurance backed) that it can all be resined and bolted back together to prevent future movement then it's very good news.
What I've seen done is each and every crack exposed, and all the mortar beds ground out by an inch and then filled with stainless threaded bar glued in with resin across each crack. Looked like a complete botch job but did seem to work. Anything even resembling a crack needs uncovering, outside as well if it's rendered. No idea what rest of house is like or how many cracked areas there are but full replastering could be an option rather than patch repairs to each room, even if you need to contribute a bit extra?
If doors and windows can be pulled back that's also positive provided you're happy everything will be as expected once done.
This is why tradesmen should never be left alone by themselves too long hehe
Here's Fireman Sam now...just in the nick of time by the looks of it...


Edited by andy43 on Tuesday 25th July 09:06


Edited by andy43 on Tuesday 25th July 09:06

Too Late

5,091 posts

234 months

Tuesday 25th July 2017
quotequote all
I would maybe get them to make the site safe, then kick them off without paying and get another firm in.

I wouldnt trust them?

If you do trust them, i would be expressing to them that i will not be paying the full amount agreed before work started

Vaud

50,285 posts

154 months

Tuesday 25th July 2017
quotequote all
Cogcog said:
The boss gets back from holiday on Friday.
Lat time I checked phones work in France... can he not return a call?

dudleybloke

19,717 posts

185 months

Tuesday 25th July 2017
quotequote all
I hope you snapped his broom in half before giving it to him.
Or left it whole and he needs a team of proctologists to remove it.

Sheepshanks

32,519 posts

118 months

Tuesday 25th July 2017
quotequote all
Too Late said:
If you do trust them, i would be expressing to them that i will not be paying the full amount agreed before work started
They seem to accepted they've messed up - arguing about paying before they've even started the remedial work doesn't strike me a good idea.

hadenough!

3,785 posts

259 months

Tuesday 25th July 2017
quotequote all
alfie2244 said:
hadenough! said:
alfie2244 said:
PositronicRay said:
NoIP said:
alfie2244 said:
Still not heard from OP as regards any contract or who is supervising / managing works on behalf of his daughter.
I have visions of the OP going to the house to get some more footage but after hearing some odd cracking noises and the sound of falling mortar dust he's now trapped inside, unable to open any door or window. hehe
Probably just doesn't want to prejudice a possible claim/case.
If so he may do well to delete pics or even ask for thread delete if that's possible. Hope it isn't the case here but It never ceases to amaze me how many private jobs are done without a proper form of contract or project manager / professional representing the client in place.
Have you ever tried to get a domestic builder to sign a contract?
A good one would...... however "they employed a large and reputable (and expensive) local builder".....from OP.

As a builder for most of my life I worked both with and without contracts many times. For a job of this size I would have wanted to use a JCT form of contract as they actually protect both parties not just the builder and was always much happier discussing problems, variations etc with a professional rather than directly with the client........I even had one say to me "well my postman said............!!

If you want a professional job in this type of work then you should employ a professional that wouldn't mind signing a contract..after all it's not a patio or similar but knocking down structural walls on probably the most expensive item that you will ever own / buy.

http://www.sweetandmaxwell.co.uk/jct%2Dhomeowner%2...

Edited by alfie2244 on Monday 24th July 21:16
You're preaching to the converted, but believe me you're in the minority. I populated a JCT homeowner and gave it to my builder, he didn't sign it but acted in accordance with it.