Correct course of action for failed electrical work.

[Sheepshanks]

hairyben said:

You're not having much luck, is there something you might be doing that puts some of them off, such as seeming to want to be too involved in exactly how the work is done? A lot of trades really don't like this.

I've found that to be true - it's best to appear to not know anything about what you're asking them to do. Better yet, get your missus to deal with them.

I don't know if such people exist, but it strikes me there'd be an opportunity for someone to interface between the customer and tradesmen. Even on small scale jobs, he could put lump jobs together to make them more worthwhile for the tradespeople.

[bmwmike]

hairyben said:

There are things the nic can and will do but they are very reluctant to jump straight in and will push you towards mediating yourself in the first instance.

Given he hasn't invoiced you for anything yet they'd definitely shrug it off. Worth noting you're well within rights to insist on a cert before paying anything; I'd ask him if he plans to complete or walk away with nothing.

You're not having much luck, is there something you might be doing that puts some of them off, such as seeming to want to be too involved in exactly how the work is done? A lot of trades really don't like this. And now you've got the aspect of another trades walked away, which tends to ring alarm bells in most tradies heads.

Bold bit. I think this is a good point. They really don't like being found out cutting corners. Nobody likes having a backseat driver or interfering know-it-all but the person paying the bill has a right to know how the work is being executed. In the OP's case he clearly has a good understanding, perhaps better than the "pro" who then felt a bit intimidated?

[Garybee]

I feel I should provide an example of what we're talking about. This is probably my favourite bit. Running cables through the joists, a few joists in reach a ladder stored in the area, do you:-

a) not get into that situation in the first place by thinking before you start drilling.
b) run the cables to the end wall and go across there.
c) lay them on top of the ladders and continue on the other side

bmwmike said:

Bold bit. I think this is a good point. They really don't like being found out cutting corners. Nobody likes having a backseat driver or interfering know-it-all but the person paying the bill has a right to know how the work is being executed. In the OP's case he clearly has a good understanding, perhaps better than the "pro" who then felt a bit intimidated?

I discussed what my requirements were with him beforehand (types of equipment/electrical load/position of light switches etc.) but how that was achieved was left entirely up to him. I was also very clear with him beforehand that he should, if in doubt, put in a bigger cable and I'm happy to pay the extra. I even worded it in such a way as he could bump his price up a bit later to keep the deal sweet.

Edited by Garybee on Sunday 25th February 19:45

[Jambo85]

Garybee said:

I feel I should provide an example of what we're talking about. This is probably my favourite bit. Running cables through the joists, a few joists in reach a ladder stored in the area, do you:-

a) not get into that situation in the first place by thinking before you start drilling.
b) run the cables to the end wall and go across there.
c) lay them on top of the ladders and continue on the other side

Reading through the thread I was thinking to myself that there's nothing wrong with running cables through joists surely, hard to avoid sometimes, but bloody hell that is rough!

My latest disappointment was a plumber fitting a new radiator - had to cut the floor which was fine but apparently doesn't carry screws/nails so fastened it back down by using the original screws down the middle of the cut attempting to secure both sides...!

[Garybee]

Jambo85 said:

Reading through the thread I was thinking to myself that there's nothing wrong with running cables through joists surely, hard to avoid sometimes, but bloody hell that is rough!

My latest disappointment was a plumber fitting a new radiator - had to cut the floor which was fine but apparently doesn't carry screws/nails so fastened it back down by using the original screws down the middle of the cut attempting to secure both sides...!

I'm not an unreasonable guy. I'm well aware that there is best practice and there is acceptable practice. Obviously It'll not be left like that long term but how it gets sorted and what I subsequently do about the work he's carried out depends entirely on his attitude when (or if) he returns.

If he just fixed the errors without me mentioning it (there's no way he thinks that it's correct so it's possible he could decide to just sort it) I genuinely would pay him more than the agreed fee. He is a nice lad and I do think that people should be paid fairly for a job well done.

That sounds like a cringeworthy bodge with the floorboard. It's tricky with issues like this, you've got to tread a fine line between keeping people on side and letting them get away with doing a crappy job. Nowadays I've settled on just doing everything myself unless it's obviously very illegal. I'm leaning towards doing that stuff too though as I'd rather have illegal/safe over legal/unsafe.

[Gareth79]

bmwmike said:

Bold bit. I think this is a good point. They really don't like being found out cutting corners. Nobody likes having a backseat driver or interfering know-it-all but the person paying the bill has a right to know how the work is being executed. In the OP's case he clearly has a good understanding, perhaps better than the "pro" who then felt a bit intimidated?

I am the same - I want to know what is being done, but I don't want to watch over somebody doing it.

The past week I had patio doors installed to replace a lounge window, requiring brickwork removal below. I picked a small-ish local company, recommended by somebody in a thread here in fact. I drop in every 20 mins to check progress and notice plasterboard being used to close off the cavity, but stupidly don't ask any details. Later I notice through a crack there is NO damp-proofing or insulation behind it. Next day I ask questions and get a bit of pushback but it's sorted. I'm not sure if they have never bothered with damp proofing and insulation in the past or just cut corners this time because they were overrunning, but obviously I wasn't happy...

[Jambo85]

Garybee said:

That sounds like a cringeworthy bodge with the floorboard. It's tricky with issues like this, you've got to tread a fine line between keeping people on side and letting them get away with doing a crappy job. Nowadays I've settled on just doing everything myself unless it's obviously very illegal. I'm leaning towards doing that stuff too though as I'd rather have illegal/safe over legal/unsafe.

Quite - this plumber is a decent bloke and always turns up on time for a lot of small jobs which I appreciate are probably more trouble than they're worth. And plumbers in particular are a trade you'd like to have on side for an emergency... But at the same time he's very young and newly out working on his own and it would probably do him good to give him some 'feedback'. I couldn't bear to lift the floor board up and see if it was still sitting on the joist on both sides of the cut - safe to say he wouldn't have added a bit of 2x2 or anything if not..

I'm certainly with you on doing electrics myself. Thankfully most jobs aren't notifiable North of the border and my house is old enough that I can always claim it was like that when I moved in or I just replaced certain runs of T&E or outlets etc.

[Fastpedeller]

It certainly is a problem when some don't do a good job, yet it has to be safe/certified. I had a guy put in a boiler, cutting long story short....... several probs, such as breather to header tank directly above pump, so when pump started it sucked air into pipes! He did come back and sort it. A year later, boiler manufacturer offered extra year warranty if they 'serviced' for a set fee IIRC £112, so I took them up on this to get their comments. Their 'service engineer' said immediately that the installer would have to come back as he'd just balanced the alloy flue sections on each other and not secured them with screws. Given there's a flexible poly liner within, I'm pleased he hadn't because he'd have probably punctured it. I said to service engineer "surely I just need to (very) carefully drill pilot holes, and grind ends off self-tappers and it's done" He said I wasn't allowed, so I pointed out that the quality of installers work suggested I'd do better (than installer), so i'd do it, and he could get the authorities to sort me out if he wanted
Only took 1/2 hour and job done. Clearly 1/2 hour the 'qualified installer' couldn't give, despite his huge wedge 'earned'

[mickmcpaddy]

Garybee said:

I feel I should provide an example of what we're talking about. This is probably my favourite bit. Running cables through the joists, a few joists in reach a ladder stored in the area, do you:-

a) not get into that situation in the first place by thinking before you start drilling.
b) run the cables to the end wall and go across there.
c) lay them on top of the ladders and continue on the other side

bmwmike said:

Bold bit. I think this is a good point. They really don't like being found out cutting corners. Nobody likes having a backseat driver or interfering know-it-all but the person paying the bill has a right to know how the work is being executed. In the OP's case he clearly has a good understanding, perhaps better than the "pro" who then felt a bit intimidated?

I discussed what my requirements were with him beforehand (types of equipment/electrical load/position of light switches etc.) but how that was achieved was left entirely up to him. I was also very clear with him beforehand that he should, if in doubt, put in a bigger cable and I'm happy to pay the extra. I even worded it in such a way as he could bump his price up a bit later to keep the deal sweet.

Edited by Garybee on Sunday 25th February 19:45

Are you sure those ladders were there when he wired the place? Maybe he had no idea, then you put the ladders back and it looks like his fault.

[Garybee]

mickmcpaddy said:

Are you sure those ladders were there when he wired the place? Maybe he had no idea, then you put the ladders back and it looks like his fault.

Why are you so desperate for me to be the problem?

Yes, I am sure the ladders were there as I haven't used them for at least 18 months. But as you're obviously accusing me of being a liar you won't accept this. In which case why do you ask the question? some of the comments from the tradesmen in this thread are comical, so convinced the customer has to be in the wrong in some way. You're the first to accuse me of being underhanded though so I suppose I can at least give you credit for being original.

What would I possibly have to gain by doing that?

[mickmcpaddy]

Garybee said:

mickmcpaddy said:

Are you sure those ladders were there when he wired the place? Maybe he had no idea, then you put the ladders back and it looks like his fault.

Why are you so desperate for me to be the problem?

Yes, I am sure the ladders were there as I haven't used them for at least 18 months. But as you're obviously accusing me of being a liar you won't accept this. In which case why do you ask the question? some of the comments from the tradesmen in this thread are comical, so convinced the customer has to be in the wrong in some way. You're the first to accuse me of being underhanded though so I suppose I can at least give you credit for being original.

What would I possibly have to gain by doing that?

Because its incomprehensible that an electrician would do that. I have been caught out by similar things in the past, customers have a knack of keeping secrets when its so obvious you need the information to do your job correctly. I have ended up with sockets over sinks when someone has changed the kitchen design without thinking to tell me or had newly fitted downlights ripped out of a landing when they have fitted a wooden ladder shortly after I've been. On the whole customers are a nightmare for changing things.

[Adam B]

mickmcpaddy said:

Are you sure those ladders were there when he wired the place? Maybe he had no idea, then you put the ladders back and it looks like his fault.

bizarre response

[Jediworrier]

He could have at least bonded the ladder if it's a permanent feature!

[Fastpedeller]

At least he drilled the hole through the middle of the joist ie the correct way

[hairyben]

bmwmike said:

hairyben said:

There are things the nic can and will do but they are very reluctant to jump straight in and will push you towards mediating yourself in the first instance.

Given he hasn't invoiced you for anything yet they'd definitely shrug it off. Worth noting you're well within rights to insist on a cert before paying anything; I'd ask him if he plans to complete or walk away with nothing.

You're not having much luck, is there something you might be doing that puts some of them off, such as seeming to want to be too involved in exactly how the work is done? A lot of trades really don't like this. And now you've got the aspect of another trades walked away, which tends to ring alarm bells in most tradies heads.

Bold bit. I think this is a good point. They really don't like being found out cutting corners. Nobody likes having a backseat driver or interfering know-it-all but the person paying the bill has a right to know how the work is being executed. In the OP's case he clearly has a good understanding, perhaps better than the "pro" who then felt a bit intimidated?

its not a black and white situation. Some clients of mine will want to stick their noses in and I'll happily indulge their curiosity, while others will make suggestions that feel patronising, even though they may mean well. Other tradies will have differing levels of patience and interpretation. My point was more that its often not the simple perfect world social interaction you want it to be.

[hairyben]

Garybee said:

I feel I should provide an example of what we're talking about. This is probably my favourite bit. Running cables through the joists, a few joists in reach a ladder stored in the area, do you:-

a) not get into that situation in the first place by thinking before you start drilling.
b) run the cables to the end wall and go across there.
c) lay them on top of the ladders and continue on the other side

bmwmike said:

Bold bit. I think this is a good point. They really don't like being found out cutting corners. Nobody likes having a backseat driver or interfering know-it-all but the person paying the bill has a right to know how the work is being executed. In the OP's case he clearly has a good understanding, perhaps better than the "pro" who then felt a bit intimidated?

I discussed what my requirements were with him beforehand (types of equipment/electrical load/position of light switches etc.) but how that was achieved was left entirely up to him. I was also very clear with him beforehand that he should, if in doubt, put in a bigger cable and I'm happy to pay the extra. I even worded it in such a way as he could bump his price up a bit later to keep the deal sweet.

Edited by Garybee on Sunday 25th February 19:45

there's a reg, I'm not a regs-number-quoter, about suitability for external factors that that would foul on. If inclined the niceic tech line is open to all and very informative. I'd pop some trunking over those cables so they don't get mangled when the ladders moved.

[BigBen]

Jediworrier said:

He could have at least bonded the ladder if it's a permanent feature!

Lucky the cables weren't run through the hollow in the centre of the rungs.

[Rick101]

mickmcpaddy said:

Because its incomprehensible that an electrician would do that.

I think that's his point!

[Andy-SP2]

Could he have used some trunking in the area of the ladder, would have looked much better

[David-mthtml]

To add a different slant on this (don’t agree with current quality of work however) they’ll always be that one Customer that’ll complain they can no longer store the ladders there if the Electrican had moved the ladders and gone straight across.