Open plan on deeds..... fence erecting?

[Herbs]

I can see more red stones going down personally

[strain]

OP - does your neighbour look like this fellow?

[mikyman]

Hello Mark
My daughter' chocomonster' who posts on here has just drawn my attention to your problem.We went through exactly the same problem 18 months ago,so I feel qualified to give a definitive answer.
Firstly get a copy of yours and his deeds by applying to the Land Registry in Cardiff.Simple form to complete .
This document will give exact wording to the situation,bearing in mind that both you and your neighbour signed the deeds when you purchased your respective properties.
There are two types of covenants placed on land regarding fences,hedges etc.
Firstly as others have mentioned on here it can be put on by the builder whilst he completes the development.
However most have covenants placed 'in pepituity' which means the covenant stays with the land and cannot be ignored or disregarded by any bound by it.It passes from buyer to buyer.
Covenants,of any sort,placed on a property can only be rescinded by applying to the High Court,not just ignoring them,it wont go away.
However you can only object to the breaking of a covenant if it abutts your property.For example you cannot object if a neighbour across the road keeps a caravan,against the covenant.
Hope this helps,obtain and read your deeds,then find a solicitor who KNOWS about this complicated problem.Its not cheap,cost me around £3000 in legal fees.He took the fence down a day before we issued in the County Court.In simple terms he hasnt a leg to stand on and is hoping you wont go that far.We were asking for the fence to be removed and significant damages,enough to bankrupt him!
A last thought do you have legal expenses on your house insurance policy? They might be able to help.
If you want to chat direct then contact me on [e-mail]
Hope this helps.
Mike.

[roadie]

Does the original planning permission for the estate have a condition that removes Permitted Development rights for fences?

[mikyman]

Any form of planning permission, etc does not overide covenants.They are not connected.

Edited by mikyman on Tuesday 24th April 16:00

[CharlesdeGaulle]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Stop it. Seriously. Stop.

[wildoliver]

In a strange mawkish way I bet there's not a single person watching this thread who isn't secretly praying for the op to come home to find the Berlin wall has been erected by the nutter next door.

[anonymous-user]

wildoliver said:

In a strange mawkish way I bet there's not a single person watching this thread who isn't secretly praying for the op to come home to find the Berlin wall has been erected by the nutter next door.

He could just be tidying up the edges?

[Chocmonster]

wildoliver said:

In a strange mawkish way I bet there's not a single person watching this thread who isn't secretly praying for the op to come home to find the Berlin wall has been erected by the nutter next door.

Having been though what we experienced I wouldn't wish it on anyone. However the OP isn't helping himself by waiting for the neighbour to make the next move. Be proactive, check the deeds and slap the bully back into place otherwise he will continue to walk all over you.

[blueg33]

Op, you have 2 PM's from me. Unfortunately, I don't think that the covenants apply, as the ones between the builder and first purchaser of your house have not passed on to your current title, probably because they were positive covenants which do not bind successors in title.

[blueg33]

mikyman said:

Hello Mark
My daughter' chocomonster' who posts on here has just drawn my attention to your problem.We went through exactly the same problem 18 months ago,so I feel qualified to give a definitive answer.
Firstly get a copy of yours and his deeds by applying to the Land Registry in Cardiff.Simple form to complete .
This document will give exact wording to the situation,bearing in mind that both you and your neighbour signed the deeds when you purchased your respective properties.
There are two types of covenants placed on land regarding fences,hedges etc.
Firstly as others have mentioned on here it can be put on by the builder whilst he completes the development.
However most have covenants placed 'in pepituity' which means the covenant stays with the land and cannot be ignored or disregarded by any bound by it.It passes from buyer to buyer.
Covenants,of any sort,placed on a property can only be rescinded by applying to the High Court,not just ignoring them,it wont go away.
However you can only object to the breaking of a covenant if it abutts your property.For example you cannot object if a neighbour across the road keeps a caravan,against the covenant.
Hope this helps,obtain and read your deeds,then find a solicitor who KNOWS about this complicated problem.Its not cheap,cost me around £3000 in legal fees.He took the fence down a day before we issued in the County Court.In simple terms he hasnt a leg to stand on and is hoping you wont go that far.We were asking for the fence to be removed and significant damages,enough to bankrupt him!
A last thought do you have legal expenses on your house insurance policy? They might be able to help.
If you want to chat direct then contact me on [e-mail]
Hope this helps.
Mike.

Sort of,

There are a number of different types of covenant and whether they are enforceable depends on the type. Basically, to benefit from a covenant over other land, you need to own the land or part thereof that was the original beneficiary, however, a positive covenant to not pass to successors in title. Positive covenants usually relate to obligations to do things like erect fences.

If it is a scheme of development covenant and you own part of the original land then you can try and enforce the covenant against anyone whose title is burdened by the covenant.

I don't think that you or the op could claim enough damages to bankrupt a person unless they are already quite poor. To claim damages you have to prove a loss, and that is very difficult indeed. If the neighbour above had been properly advised, his solicitor would have told him that. The potential loss, is a loss of value to the property, but if you apply Red Book valuation rules the loss would be negligible.

£3k is cheap, in the past I have spent tens of thousands each time challenging and defending covenants. Overall, its generally just not worth it.

The best strategy is. actually bluff, solicitors letters citing the title, threats of injunction and huge cost etc (I suspect that is what worked above).

The Op's covenant is a developer covenant and hasn't passed to the title.

The Op does have a covenant that says he can't use a gun on the property, so shooting his neighbour is not an option

[dickymint]

OP - I would suggest you put up your own fence before you lose your land! If/when your neighbour puts one up it'll be very costly if you fight for what is already yours. Possession is 9 tenths of the law.

[PositronicRay]

dickymint said:

OP - I would suggest you put up your own fence before you lose your land! If/when your neighbour puts one up it'll be very costly if you fight for what is already yours. Possession is 9 tenths of the law.

Paranoia or what! It's hardly acres, it may or may not be a few cm.

No-ones even sure a fence is happening, so far all we've had is 150mm of concrete laid next to a drive. Hardly a fence foundation.

[blueg33]

M12MTR said:

blueg33 said:

Op, you have 2 PM's from me. Unfortunately, I don't think that the covenants apply, as the ones between the builder and first purchaser of your house have not passed on to your current title, probably because they were positive covenants which do not bind successors in title.

Thanks blueg33.

My solicitor still stands firm: covenant applies and NO fence / boundary of any kind from front of house dwelling into front boundary to separate properties.

Plus if "first purchaser" - my neighbour is the first purchaser of his property. Does this affect your findings?

Thanks btw.

Note IANAL. The land registry does not show the covenant in the title, it shows plenty of others, but maybe something has been missed by LR its not unusual.

If your neighbour is the first purchaser then the only person who can enforce is the developer assuming that these are positive covenants. If he isn't the first, then even the developer can't enforce them.

[dickymint]

PositronicRay said:

dickymint said:

OP - I would suggest you put up your own fence before you lose your land! If/when your neighbour puts one up it'll be very costly if you fight for what is already yours. Possession is 9 tenths of the law.

Paranoia or what! It's hardly acres, it may or may not be a few cm.

No-ones even sure a fence is happening, so far all we've had is 150mm of concrete laid next to a drive. Hardly a fence foundation.

OP has already stated if the neighbour puts a fence up then he will "retaliate" with a higher one inside of neighbours - this in itself is giving up his own land (not in title but like I say 9 tenths.......).

[21TonyK]

OP, really? You are adamant your boundary is within the area you neighbour has decided he owns and has laid concrete in and you haven't confronted him about it?

FFS, grow some!

[dickymint]

M12MTR said:

I'm remaining calm and thoughtful. It's not about locking horns and cajones! I don't want confrontation for the sake of it.

So far no fence - my neighbour may be tidying his lawn and laying red chipping / flowers for all I know. But I do suspect a fence tbh.

If / when a barrier is built - he can strike first - then I will decide my response. Whether this be challenge legally or build my own fence - I have plans to improve my drive / widen it / possible wooden gates to access my drive at my house front etc. If I'm 'forced' to do this (ie. If he erected a fence) then I will ensure my fence blocks his view / light into his living room plus I get more room at my front to 'wash all of my cars'- so in effect my neighbour will have more to worry about than me I'm sure.

But (correct me if I’m wrong) you are insistent that strip of cut lawn is your property

[Welshbeef]

M12MTR said:

I'm remaining calm and thoughtful. It's not about locking horns and cajones! I don't want confrontation for the sake of it.

So far no fence - my neighbour may be tidying his lawn and laying red chipping / flowers for all I know. But I do suspect a fence tbh.

If / when a barrier is built - he can strike first - then I will decide my response. Whether this be challenge legally or build my own fence - I have plans to improve my drive / widen it / possible wooden gates to access my drive at my house front etc. If I'm 'forced' to do this (ie. If he erected a fence) then I will ensure my fence blocks his view / light into his living room plus I get more room at my front to 'wash all of my cars'- so in effect my neighbour will have more to worry about than me I'm sure.

No you are refusing to communicate with him to challenge what he is doing.

Pondering etc - it’s been 2 years pondering about the rest and you’ve done nothing / got used to it and accepted it. The same will happen here

What’s the worst that happens it starts to escalate and you simply tell him to get lost.

[dickymint]

PS if he puts up a 2 metre fence (odds on he is allowed to) you can’t trump that can you!

[Welshbeef]

M12MTR said:

What’s the worst that happens it starts to escalate and you simply tell him to get lost.

Or it escalates out of control and someone calls the Police to try and get me in bother. He's retired so no repercussion him. I'm not wanting any reason to escalate things.

My approach is calm and collected. This is not a weakness. If folk think so then so be it.

I do appreciate people's thoughts btw.

How could it escalate out of control?

I’ve stated take your phone leave it recording the discussion get a witness with you be it another neighbour your Mrs /boyfriend

If it did get out of hand please let him slap you about - you’ve got him then assault. Don’t touch him whatsoever unless you think the pondering calm style cannot take it when the heat is really on?