Buying land to build a house
Discussion
Welshbeef said:
JonChalk said:
For that budget, what about buying a pile of crap in a good location and demolishing it to start again.
Less risky for PP (though not guaranteed) as a dwelling already existed.
But where are these piles of crap in good areas priced low? Less risky for PP (though not guaranteed) as a dwelling already existed.
JonChalk said:
For that budget, what about buying a pile of crap in a good location and demolishing it to start again.
Less risky for PP (though not guaranteed) as a dwelling already existed.
That's the most common way to get a plot for a new-build where I happen to live, myself (North Norfolk Coastal AONB). It's not an especially cheap way of getting a bit of land, though.Less risky for PP (though not guaranteed) as a dwelling already existed.
I've just got PP through yesterday on a 5-bed house and studio annexe (with additional guest bedroom) on the plot of a shabby, 1950's PRC bungalow just outside the AONB, as it happens. Value of the bungalow there was circa £140K (which was pretty much the plot value, anyway, because the PRC was verging on unmortgageable). The location is unexceptional by local standards, though (nice enough village, but an infill plot between some new houses and a row of former council houses).
Welshbeef said:
See I’d love to buy a 1 acre plot and build a house on it but where do you find land like that and that isn’t priced to eye watering levels.
Open countryside: agricultural land is ~£12K per acre.The catch then is the cost of designing and building something to Para 79 standards.
The other option, if you're brave and lucky, is Flood Zone 3.
227bhp said:
Is there much point in asking a farmer if he'll saw off the corner of a field and sell it to you? Something I've pondered over, but not sure of the viability.
It depends on location. Almost by definition, such land will be clasified as open countryside, outside of settlement boundaries, but you will occasionally come across situations where you can make a case for it.
Equus said:
Welshbeef said:
See I’d love to buy a 1 acre plot and build a house on it but where do you find land like that and that isn’t priced to eye watering levels.
Open countryside: agricultural land is ~£12K per acre.The catch then is the cost of designing and building something to Para 79 standards.
The other option, if you're brave and lucky, is Flood Zone 3.
garyhun said:
Equus said:
Welshbeef said:
See I’d love to buy a 1 acre plot and build a house on it but where do you find land like that and that isn’t priced to eye watering levels.
Open countryside: agricultural land is ~£12K per acre.The catch then is the cost of designing and building something to Para 79 standards.
The other option, if you're brave and lucky, is Flood Zone 3.
garyhun said:
I looked at a plot with permission for a (then) Para 55 house. The plot was very reasonable but the build cost was eye watering!
Yeah, that would be the worst of both worlds - the cost of para 55/79, plus the inflated cost of a plot with PP!If you're brave/confident enough, the trick with Para 79 is to buy the land at agricultural land value as agricultural land, then get the permission yourself. If you paid £12K/acre (or whatever) for the land, the costs of building Para 79 then become slightly more palatable. And, of course, if you (or rather your Architect) is clever enough, Para 55 doesn't have to be mega-expensive, so long as it is technically or architecturally innovative enough. If the worst comes to the worst, you can always sell the land on at agricultural value, and all you've lost is the costs of the Planning application and legal fees... or you get stuck with some land that didn't cost you any more than a family car in the first place.
A former business partner of mine has just got a Para 79 house approved in Lincolnshire. I have to say that both I and my Planning Director were astonished, because whilst it is certainly 'Grand Designs', it was actually quite derivative, architecturally, and well below the standard that most LPA's would have required. Most Authorities set a very high bar on such applications.
...But she's now got the problem of actually building it, which so far as I can see, and unless she goes back to ask for design revisions, is going to require a bulk buy of skyhooks.
Equus said:
garyhun said:
I looked at a plot with permission for a (then) Para 55 house. The plot was very reasonable but the build cost was eye watering!
Yeah, that would be the worst of both worlds - the cost of para 55/79, plus the inflated cost of a plot with PP!If you're brave/confident enough, the trick with Para 79 is to buy the land at agricultural land value as agricultural land, then get the permission yourself. If you paid £12K/acre (or whatever) for the land, the costs of building Para 79 then become slightly more palatable. And, of course, if you (or rather your Architect) is clever enough, Para 55 doesn't have to be mega-expensive, so long as it is technically or architecturally innovative enough. If the worst comes to the worst, you can always sell the land on at agricultural value, and all you've lost is the costs of the Planning application and legal fees... or you get stuck with some land that didn't cost you any more than a family car in the first place.
A former business partner of mine has just got a Para 79 house approved in Lincolnshire. I have to say that both I and my Planning Director were astonished, because whilst it is certainly 'Grand Designs', it was actually quite derivative, architecturally, and well below the standard that most LPA's would have required. Most Authorities set a very high bar on such applications.
...But she's now got the problem of actually building it, which so far as I can see, and unless she goes back to ask for design revisions, is going to require a bulk buy of skyhooks.
I’m moving to Yorkshire but am in Lincolnshire now so good to hear that exciting things are being allowed.
garyhun said:
I’m moving to Yorkshire but am in Lincolnshire now so good to hear that exciting things are being allowed.
This was in the Lincolnshire Badlands ( the flat, agricultural bit, not the Wolds, which are lovely). I think it was probably passed because anything is more exciting than turnips.Equus said:
garyhun said:
I’m moving to Yorkshire but am in Lincolnshire now so good to hear that exciting things are being allowed.
This was in the Lincolnshire Badlands ( the flat, agricultural bit, not the Wolds, which are lovely). I think it was probably passed because anything is more exciting than turnips.
Equus said:
In which case, they'll develop it themselves (bearing in mind that they can build both smaller and cheaper than almost any self-builder... so if it's too small or there's no profit in it for a small developer, it'll be too small or overpriced for a self-builder, too).
...and I've yet to meet a landowner who has a problem selling to a corporate developer, when they see the colour of the money.
You will occasionally persuade a small developer to carve out a plot on one of their developments for self-build, if they've bitten off more than they can chew with cashflow, or the development is selling slowly; and an increasing number of LPA's are bring in policies that demand serviced plots for self-builders as part of major sites, as a means of meeting the aforementioned obligation to deliver land for self-builds, but both will usually fall into the OP's classification of 'little bits of land in s
tty locations'.
Interesting thanks. I sold a couple of end of garden plots a few years back and found that self builders paid a lot more than the local developers who tended to base their values on a commercial basis. So assumed this was more of a norm and that a developer could still make a turn from effecting an introductions on plots they’d found but vendors not prepared to deal at their price. ...and I've yet to meet a landowner who has a problem selling to a corporate developer, when they see the colour of the money.
You will occasionally persuade a small developer to carve out a plot on one of their developments for self-build, if they've bitten off more than they can chew with cashflow, or the development is selling slowly; and an increasing number of LPA's are bring in policies that demand serviced plots for self-builders as part of major sites, as a means of meeting the aforementioned obligation to deliver land for self-builds, but both will usually fall into the OP's classification of 'little bits of land in s
tty locations'.I spent 11 years searching for the self build Nirvana, did all the self build mags, sites etc, sweet talked all the local estate agents (dinner at my house, my kids friends with their kids etc) - nowt!
Eventual plot came up as a half started/finished self build (divorce!) that we won after visiting for about 20 mins, estate agent recommended our offer over a similar offer based on his knowledge of our commitment- on a fair fight we would have lost!
7 years later and happy in our “forever house” we had a land agent offer us 40% more than market value (he was going to assemble chunks of land for a bigger scheme) - it fell through in the end, but you can’t compete with the mid to big boys!!!
Walk the locality looking for ste houses on good plots, get really really friendly with your local agents, tap up the “old school” estate agents (my gran used them so I will too) - be ready to move fast when the tine comes.
Fab feeling completing it all, pain in the arse getting there though.
Jim
Eventual plot came up as a half started/finished self build (divorce!) that we won after visiting for about 20 mins, estate agent recommended our offer over a similar offer based on his knowledge of our commitment- on a fair fight we would have lost!
7 years later and happy in our “forever house” we had a land agent offer us 40% more than market value (he was going to assemble chunks of land for a bigger scheme) - it fell through in the end, but you can’t compete with the mid to big boys!!!
Walk the locality looking for s
te houses on good plots, get really really friendly with your local agents, tap up the “old school” estate agents (my gran used them so I will too) - be ready to move fast when the tine comes. Fab feeling completing it all, pain in the arse getting there though.
Jim
DonkeyApple said:
Interesting thanks. I sold a couple of end of garden plots a few years back and found that self builders paid a lot more than the local developers who tended to base their values on a commercial basis. So assumed this was more of a norm and that a developer could still make a turn from effecting an introductions on plots they’d found but vendors not prepared to deal at their price.
That does still happen - especially where I used to live in Poole. However, the developer would typically sell an unwanted plot to another developer who was lower down the pecking order. In areas like that, where plots were at a very large premium, the smaller developer either purchased at inflated prices (which still offered a smaller but satisfactory profit margin) or suddenly found themselves out of business.Self-builders do still have an advantage of being able to pay over the odds because they can ignore the profit element (to a degree) but they have to hunt out opportunities in a way that the developers do not.
DonkeyApple said:
I sold a couple of end of garden plots a few years back and found that self builders paid a lot more than the local developers who tended to base their values on a commercial basis
Yes, for sure, there are self-builders who are desperate/stupid enough to pay prices that allow no profit margin (or even a negative margin).But on that basis you would be recommending that the OP search for plots in a manner that will deliver only those that are priced so high that the developers aren't interested?
At risk of becoming tedious by repetition: refer to Rule 1.
As many have already pointed out: the days of stumbling across a viable serviced plot for 1-2 houses in a sustainable location are long gone. Have a look for co-housing co-operatives. These tend to be Community Interest Consortia (CICs) that have an option on Local Authority land set aside for co-housing/ self build.
Strength in numbers seems to be the key to getting a decent plot. Google co-housing schemes in the area you're looking at. Failing that, take some brave pills and look to gathering a posse of like-minded souls. This will increase your buying power and make you more credible when negotiating. Social media and self-build forums might help here.
Local authorities have long, long lists of sites they're looking to dispose of. Many will tend to be out in the sticks (therefore achieving adequate service connections needs to be considered).Many will have an historic listed structure requiring attention: Too restrictive for your average developer - but ideal for a group looking for available land and at least one of you willing to refurbish an old historic tithe barn in the equation. Good luck.
Strength in numbers seems to be the key to getting a decent plot. Google co-housing schemes in the area you're looking at. Failing that, take some brave pills and look to gathering a posse of like-minded souls. This will increase your buying power and make you more credible when negotiating. Social media and self-build forums might help here.
Local authorities have long, long lists of sites they're looking to dispose of. Many will tend to be out in the sticks (therefore achieving adequate service connections needs to be considered).Many will have an historic listed structure requiring attention: Too restrictive for your average developer - but ideal for a group looking for available land and at least one of you willing to refurbish an old historic tithe barn in the equation. Good luck.
Equus, aren't there 'recent' (as in the past few years) PDRs for converting agricultural buildings now?
Finding a asset rich/cash poor farmer who can't/doesn't know how to go through the process to get planning on that old cow shed at the bottom of his field might be a different route for you? As above the professionals won't be looking at cow sheds but you might luck out?
I also find that landowners who don't know what they're doing (e.g. the type you want) tend to go to architects rather than agents in the first instance, so getting friendly with the local ones might be of interest?
Finding a asset rich/cash poor farmer who can't/doesn't know how to go through the process to get planning on that old cow shed at the bottom of his field might be a different route for you? As above the professionals won't be looking at cow sheds but you might luck out?
I also find that landowners who don't know what they're doing (e.g. the type you want) tend to go to architects rather than agents in the first instance, so getting friendly with the local ones might be of interest?
Equus said:
Yes, for sure, there are self-builders who are desperate/stupid enough to pay prices that allow no profit margin (or even a negative margin).
But on that basis you would be recommending that the OP search for plots in a manner that will deliver only those that are priced so high that the developers aren't interested?
At risk of becoming tedious by repetition: refer to Rule 1.
It's not desperate if you are prepared to do without a large part of the developers profit.But on that basis you would be recommending that the OP search for plots in a manner that will deliver only those that are priced so high that the developers aren't interested?
At risk of becoming tedious by repetition: refer to Rule 1.
Some people just want a house that is "theirs"
ben5575 said:
Equus, aren't there 'recent' (as in the past few years) PDRs for converting agricultural buildings now?
Yes. Referred to in the jargon as 'Class Q', mentioned in my second post.They're complicated. Don't even think about going there without a professional to hold your hand.
Edited by Equus on Tuesday 16th October 23:55
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