Chipboard flooring and problems

[Fonzey]

Long one so bear with me...

Moved into our house about 18 months ago, from the very first viewing the floors did my head in but I assumed they would be relatively simply DIY fixes.

It's a ~2003 vintage new build, commissioned by an individual rather than developer and has a really odd mix of really high quality fixtures/fittings and really poorly executed stuff. The chipboard flooring being an example of this.

Both upstairs and downstairs have been done with chipboard on joists, the upstairs floors by far being the worst because you can suffer it both whilst being upstairs, but also it sounds terrible from the ground floor too. Downstairs is tolerable, for now.

The issues are noise, creaking, cracking, popping, squeaking - the whole catalogue. I've tried a bunch of DIY approaches including:

- replacing nails with screws
- Talc and later a watered down PVA mix in the joins
- Trying to screw the sole-plate (right word?) of the floating walls back down into the floor
- hammering wedges in between the walls and floor
- boarded over the bedroom with ply running at a 90deg angle to the chipboard
- We put laminate down on the ground floor in the hallway/boot room thing that we've got. It helped initially, but now you can just hear the laminate groaning too with the movement of the subfloor. This was AFTER screwing down every few inches.

All of the solutions make slight improvements, but fundamentally the issue is still there. The most successful approach was boarding over but it still sounds nasty from the ground below, and it's a little jarring to have a slight step up at the threshold into the room and down to the en-suite.

I think the issues come from a number of areas, which is why it's hard for a single solution to fix everything:

- Joists aren't supported properly with enough noggins. In some areas two chipboard panels meet over thin air - so no amount of screwing or nailing will fix it without pulling up and putting a noggin in.

- Some chipboard has taken on moisture, probably hurting its strength

- The walls are sat on top of the floors - seemingly with big nails every few feet. There's now a gap that varies between 1/4 inch and 1/2 inch between - and a lot of the noise you hear is actually coming from the walls.

On the ground floor, much of it is hard floor - the kitchen/utility is tiled and you can hear the floor creaking beneath the tiles... but no easy fix here. It'll have to wait for if/when we re-do the kitchen I guess and the tiles come up. Luckily most of the walls here are actual block walls and not just floating wood/plasterboard walls - so the issues are not quite as widespread.

I'm now thinking about more drastic measures, namely reflooring the entire upstairs with something new - addressing as many issues as I can with joists, noggins and walls whilst I'm at it. I found a company that do this exact thing: https://squeakyfloorsolution.co.uk/

Essentially it's swapping chipboard out for ply, making sure the joists are all supported properly - then glueing/screwing it all down properly at the end.

Obviously they are 'just' putting a new floor down, but the fact their product/service is aimed specifically at resolving my issues - they stand out to me more than just getting in a generic tradesman to swap chipboard for ply (for example), and if they fail to fix the issues - I at least have a fight with them.

It'll be expensive though, in the region of £5k for doing the upstairs which is 4 bedrooms and 2 bathrooms... but I'm considering it. Aside from the cost it is obviously going to be disruptive, lots of mess, dust and I'll probably need to move the wife and baby out for a week or two whilst it's done. Even once complete, I'll be left with a load of carpet to get re-fitted and furniture reinstalled and I imagine stuff like skirting boards will become collateral damage along the way. Bathrooms would also need retiling but that's on the list anyway.

My alternative thought is to have a go myself, I'm not very hands on but not a total DIY idiot. We've got a spare room which is by far the worst for floor-noise, and once Christmas is done it'll be vacant for months at a time... so seems a good place to start. I think I would want some guidance though.

I've got an opportunity to do a test run experiment in my living room on the ground floor. There's a join between two boards which clearly have no noggin for support and it's right in the path most people walk down when entering the room. My plan is to get a circular saw which can have the depth set on it, and cut through the T&G for one of the offending boards - stick a noggin in, then glue the board back down (or more likely, buy a brand new one as I imagine i'll destroy it on the way out). Obviously the T&G will be dead for this board, but hopefully not a problem for a one-off. If that goes well I might get brave enough to do a full room, but I'm not sure about a few things.

1. How easy is it going to be to remove/replace the floorboards that go under the walls?
2. If both the ply and chipboard are T&G... it feels like the coexistence period of having half the floor in one and half the floor in the other is going to be a nightmare, especially as the chipboard T&G is likely to have been damaged by ripping out the neighbouring floorboards.
3. Any particular process/products I should use to make sure this gets done properly. Thinking about opportunities to add more (sound) insulation in the cavities between joists etc but also glues and membranes(?) worth putting down to cushion the acoustics a bit.
4. Any suggestions for the walls? It feels like the best option would be to peel the skirting boards back and drive big long screws in at 45deg so they pin the sole plate down to the floor a bit better... doesn't seem to be foolproof though based on past experience. There must be a better option.

I've posted this as a way to start getting mentally prepared for it, I won't be quite as dramatic to say that this issue is spoiling the house for me - but it's not far off. It really cheapens the whole thing which is a shame because it ticks so many other boxes. If I could get success in the spare room, I might then put the work into the other rooms sequentially but it'll depend on what sort of thresholds I can achieve between old floors and new floors, is it would likely take me a year (or more) to work through the whole thing! That brings me straight back into the realms of paying £5k and having done with it...

I welcome any thoughts or suggestions.

[BaldOldMan]

What sort of guarantee do you get for your 5k ?

I'd be more inclined to try to tackle the first floor from below if at all possible. Far easier to rip a ceiling down and fix the lack of noggins, joist supports etc from below, then re-board & skim IMHO

[drmotorsport]

I feel your pain as my kitchen floor was done in cheap 80's chipboard which naturally over time just dissolves. I bit the bullet and ripped up the floor and replaced with ply after the wife fell through the floor and the dishwasher wet itself causing another massive patch to blow.

It's not a very difficult job and totally DIYable, or any chippy should be able to rip up the old floor and replace with ply. Yes its properly messy and will ruin skirting and plaster, but I took the opportunity to insulate and run some network cable while the floor was up. Always screw every 300mm and make sure that all board edges are well supported.

[V8RX7]

I had similar - I found a lump hammer and heavy punch solved 90% of it (gun nailed floor)

If you're at the stage of ripping it up - fair enough but I'd try simply circ sawing a room up, 1/2 onto the nearest joist to the wall - it really shouldn't be too hard nor take too long.

Using the proper expanding glue and the proper screws should solve the issue (mostly caused by the joists drying out)

I'd guess at 2 rooms a day - for a carpenter and lad so maybe £500 inc materials to see what you're dealing with and how satisfactorily it can be solved

[Promised Land]

V8RX7 said:

Using the proper expanding glue

D4 Egger glue is what we use on site, without being in the OP plot it's hard to tell where the noise comes from but what does happen a lot in a new build is as soon as the carpet fitters have been the plot finds a squeak, like someone tapping a copper pipe.

Normally on the landing or near a trimmer joist for soil stacks etc.

We put it down to how they stretch the carpet with that knee kicker thing, what it is when you cut the floor out is the twist nails in the hangers have worked their way loose and when you walk over that joist it puts stress on it in the hanger and it rubs the steel hanger making the noise.

Another common one is the nails in the sole plate of the stud work, you walk over the floor it gives slightly and the nail in the floor and stud squeaks.

Modern homes have one nail in the floorboard if that now as its called silent floor to try and elimate squeaks however the NHBC still stipulate you put a twist nail in every hole in the hangers, this is where problems arise most of the time.

[Fonzey]

BaldOldMan said:

What sort of guarantee do you get for your 5k ?

I'd be more inclined to try to tackle the first floor from below if at all possible. Far easier to rip a ceiling down and fix the lack of noggins, joist supports etc from below, then re-board & skim IMHO

They claim that they will guarantee a 95% fix of floor noise - obviously that's impossible to measure, so is somewhat of a leap of faith. I believe the workmanship is guaranteed for 5 years which would be enough for any drastic "settling" to happen I imagine.

The main benefit of me going with them over a random labourer is that they're coming in specifically to resolve 'noise'. The fella who overboarded my bedroom was not keen on the idea of reflooring my house, and he said he had no idea of whether or not he could fix my issues. I want somebody to come in and confidently say "yeah we do this all the time, easy fix" etc etc.

As for your second point, this is exactly why I posted on PH - that's an approach I'd have never even considered and might be quite a good one for the aforementioned spare rooom, as it's directly above the dining room which is equally as unused! I could rip the ceiling down in there without really disrupting the household and get all the noggins sorted... the problem is, noggins is only half the story - I'm still going to have issues with the wall sole plates and nail/screw fixings that I imagine can only be resolved from up top. Needs more thought.

drmotorsport said:

It's not a very difficult job and totally DIYable, or any chippy should be able to rip up the old floor and replace with ply. Yes its properly messy and will ruin skirting and plaster, but I took the opportunity to insulate and run some network cable while the floor was up. Always screw every 300mm and make sure that all board edges are well supported.

Yes these are my thoughts, it's not difficult - but if I do it DIY I think I'd be forced into doing it piecemeal and I just can't picture how that would work - half of the house in plywood and half in chipboard etc. Getting somebody in just means we can brute force through it.

There's a lad who bought a knackered old council house quite local who has gutted it top to bottom over the last 18 months or so. He's just about got the place liveable so once he's had chance to catch his breath, I might have a word to see if he would fancy it or could recommend somebody. If I could get costs from a chippy&son that come in significantly lower than the "squeeky floor people" then I might be tempted, but if after all that disruption it was still noisy... I'd still kick myself and wonder if it would have been better going the expensive route.

V8RX7 said:

I had similar - I found a lump hammer and heavy punch solved 90% of it (gun nailed floor)

If you're at the stage of ripping it up - fair enough but I'd try simply circ sawing a room up, 1/2 onto the nearest joist to the wall - it really shouldn't be too hard nor take too long.

Using the proper expanding glue and the proper screws should solve the issue (mostly caused by the joists drying out)

I'd guess at 2 rooms a day - for a carpenter and lad so maybe £500 inc materials to see what you're dealing with and how satisfactorily it can be solved

Yeah I've been there/done that with the lump hammer. When we first moved in I pretty much had the entire first floor carpet up, I put in almost 1000 of those spax screws and punch/hammered all of the nails down for good measure. It certainly helped in some areas, but far from fixed it. I think once Christmas is done I'll get the spare bed out of the room, lift up the carpet and figure out what I've got to deal with. As I've said above my big concern is how I blend in a new ply wood floor with an old T&G chipboard floor. I guess at worst I could rip up all of the 'full boards' that are in that room and replace those leaving a non-TG boundary to between the old and new stuff.

Promised Land said:

D4 Egger glue is what we use on site, without being in the OP plot it's hard to tell where the noise comes from but what does happen a lot in a new build is as soon as the carpet fitters have been the plot finds a squeak, like someone tapping a copper pipe.

Normally on the landing or near a trimmer joist for soil stacks etc.

We put it down to how they stretch the carpet with that knee kicker thing, what it is when you cut the floor out is the twist nails in the hangers have worked their way loose and when you walk over that joist it puts stress on it in the hanger and it rubs the steel hanger making the noise.

Another common one is the nails in the sole plate of the stud work, you walk over the floor it gives slightly and the nail in the floor and stud squeaks.

Modern homes have one nail in the floorboard if that now as its called silent floor to try and elimate squeaks however the NHBC still stipulate you put a twist nail in every hole in the hangers, this is where problems arise most of the time.

There's some good info there, thanks! I do understand that noisy floors are "normal" and to a certain extent I should just live with it, but I really feel this is exceptionally so and it otherwise spoils a house that I quite like.

[V8RX7]

I think you're missing the point

The problem is NOT the chipboard - it's used for 99% of floors

The problem is the glue / fixings / joists...

[dxg]

I suspect the joists. There shouldn't be any kind of gap under the wall runners.

Have you investigated to see if the floors are sagging in the middle of the rooms? Joists might be undersized...

How much bounce is there in the floor?

[Piersman2]

This creaking floors thing is one of my pet hates as well. When I built my extension about 10 years back I fitted the joists and chipboard flooring myself.

I was deparate to avoid creaking and movement in the boards so:
first off made sure the joists were rock solid with tight noggins, etc...,
then used chipboard flooring screws, lots of them, the ones with the double screws that grip into joist and chipboard,
made sure everything was rock solid with screws well embedded
then finally, because I could access underneath, I ran a thick bead of no more nails type glue around every single joist/chipboard/noggin joint and pressed it firmly in.

10 years on the floor is still rock solid without a single squeak. You can feel the extra solidity of the new floor as you step onto it from the original 1950s flooring of tongue & groove. No bounce, no movement, no squeak, just feels solid like concrete.

A bit of extra work at the time but worth it in the long run.

[Fonzey]

V8RX7 said:

I think you're missing the point

The problem is NOT the chipboard - it's used for 99% of floors

The problem is the glue / fixings / joists...

No I'm well aware (overboarding kinda proved this to me), but we've also got some areas where the chipboard has suffered because it's chipboard (looks like a leak from a shower tray at some point has turned part of the landing floor into weetabix), and since the whole lot has to come up to resolve the joists/glue/fixings - I'd rather put something better down.

dxg said:

I suspect the joists. There shouldn't be any kind of gap under the wall runners.

Have you investigated to see if the floors are sagging in the middle of the rooms? Joists might be undersized...

How much bounce is there in the floor?

The Chippy who overboarded the bedroom did take a look under the floor at the joists and he said they're a bit on the skinny side. The bounce isn't TOO bad unless you find a bit of floor that's not fixed down properly (particularly on the ground floor under the tiles where I've not been able to get in with my spax screws).

As for the gaps under the walls, I've hammered some wedges in places which has helped - the gap really does vary - can get a little finger into some of them.

If the joists are undersized, is there a reasonable fix? Just keep throwing more support in to overcompensate?

[Fonzey]

Piersman2 said:

This creaking floors thing is one of my pet hates as well. When I built my extension about 10 years back I fitted the joists and chipboard flooring myself.

I was deparate to avoid creaking and movement in the boards so:
first off made sure the joists were rock solid with tight noggins, etc...,
then used chipboard flooring screws, lots of them, the ones with the double screws that grip into joist and chipboard,
made sure everything was rock solid with screws well embedded
then finally, because I could access underneath, I ran a thick bead of no more nails type glue around every single joist/chipboard/noggin joint and pressed it firmly in.

10 years on the floor is still rock solid without a single squeak. You can feel the extra solidity of the new floor as you step onto it from the original 1950s flooring of tongue & groove. No bounce, no movement, no squeak, just feels solid like concrete.

A bit of extra work at the time but worth it in the long run.

That's exactly what I'm after

[V8RX7]

Ignore whoever said about taking ceilings down - if you think carpenters are messy...

Moisture would be horrific, cracking around the edges...

[timmymagic73]

I feel your pain, I have a very similar situation in my new extension chipboard first floor too, creaks, cracks, bangs, etc. Awful.

Unfortunately, and I'm ashamed to admit it - the only person to blame here is me as I did it myself when I was less experienced! The first job I did in a long running renovation project from a bare shell.

Of course all the rooms are decorated and carpeted now with stud walls on top.... although my saving grace is that we're fitting a new better quality carpet throughout and re-decorating as we go 10 years later, so this is the time to sort it properly.

I'm planning to take off all the skirting as luckily it's only glued on - then remove the original chipboard floor entirely and plunge cut with a multi-tool where necessary. This shouldn't be toooo disruptive?? Then noggin as necessary and re-board properly and re-fit the same skirting after.

Good luck!

[dmsims]

Glue the tongues with this:

[Fonzey]

It is probably worth noting that I've not found any evidence at all that the boards were glued down, either to the joists or in the T&G... I imagine it's quite obvious when chipboard comes into contact with glue.

That makes me hopeful that much of this can be fixed by just re-laying as-is, but properly.

I'm quite keen now after posting this thread and discussing to get the floor up in my spare room. I've been quite cagey on previous attempts with stuff like skirting board, but I'll just go in hamfisted and if it breaks... i'll replace. I'll give myself the best chance possible to fix one room, and if that works I may have the confidence to do the rest myself too.

I'm still a bit concerned about what I'd do when the new flooring meets the old stuff at the threshold to the room(s) that I'm working in... but I just hope that'll make more sense in my head once the carpet is up and I can have a good look.

In terms of where the walls are - would it be a completely stupid idea to cut the existing floor as close to the wall as possible, and then just lay my new floor next to it with a small expansion gap (the gap would ideally be under the skirting after it's re-laid). That way my walls would be isolated from the floor that's been walked on and in theory immune to the floor movement that occurs.

[magooagain]

A customer of mine supplied me with rolls of self adhesive foam and instructed me to put it on top of all the floor timbers before fixing the 22 mm chipboard. All joints were glued also.

I presume it worked.

[V8RX7]

Fonzey said:

It is probably worth noting that I've not found any evidence at all that the boards were glued down, either to the joists or in the T&G... I imagine it's quite obvious when chipboard comes into contact with glue.

I'm quite keen now after posting this thread and discussing to get the floor up in my spare room. I've been quite cagey on previous attempts with stuff like skirting board, but I'll just go in hamfisted and if it breaks... i'll replace. I'll give myself the best chance possible to fix one room, and if that works I may have the confidence to do the rest myself too.

I'm still a bit concerned about what I'd do when the new flooring meets the old stuff at the threshold to the room(s) that I'm working in... but I just hope that'll make more sense in my head once the carpet is up and I can have a good look.

In terms of where the walls are - would it be a completely stupid idea to cut the existing floor as close to the wall as possible, and then just lay my new floor next to it with a small expansion gap (the gap would ideally be under the skirting after it's re-laid). That way my walls would be isolated from the floor that's been walked on and in theory immune to the floor movement that occurs.

If they are clean (unlikely on a new build) then you wouldn't see much evidence of glue on the floor.

You have to set your saw exactly to the depth - pipes / electrics can be tight against it.

Personally I'd leave the skirting and join 1/2 on the nearest joist, you can join to the floor by screwing a timber under it, but it's not ideal.

[Fonzey]

V8RX7 said:

If they are clean (unlikely on a new build) then you wouldn't see much evidence of glue on the floor.

You have to set your saw exactly to the depth - pipes / electrics can be tight against it.

Personally I'd leave the skirting and join 1/2 on the nearest joist, you can join to the floor by screwing a timber under it, but it's not ideal.

Yes first task will be to figure out how thick my flooring actually is - I expect whatever is cheapest and meets regulation

OK so leave skirting on and go to the nearest joist - that makes sense, effectively leaving anywhere up to 16" (or whatever distance is between joists) of old flooring around the walls that are parallel with the direction of the joists. (did I interpret that right?)

My other option (probably also a stupid idea) would be to see if I could completely remove the boards from under the walls, which of course will mean disrupting two rooms at once - but based on the gaps I've seen under the walls I could easily get a hacksaw under to cut through any nails from the base of the walls. All radiators are on external walls so no drama there, but there are a few sockets on the interior walls that I'd need to figure out.

[V8RX7]

Yes

Probably 18mm

If you cut close to walls and skew screws through the bottom and the skirting that really ought to do it.

That's why I'd test one room and see it it's good enough for you

[Fonzey]

V8RX7 said:

That's why I'd test one room and see it it's good enough for you

Cheers, I think this is now my plan. What's the worst that can happen...

Whilst I'm doing it, is it worth looking at padding out the ceiling/floor cavity with anything that could help sound insulation? I'm fairly sure that refixing the floor properly will resolve 99% of my issues... but whilst the furniture/carpet/floor is all ripped out, even if it costs a bit for a 0.01% upgrade it's probably worth my while..?