Water leak issue

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romeogolf

Original Poster:

2,056 posts

118 months

Friday 17th January 2020
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We've had an issue with water/damp coming into two bedrooms. This has happened on and off over two years now and in that time we've spent almost £2k on various fixes including having the gutters cleaned, having the gulley behind them resealed, having a coping stone resealed, and replacing a broken roof tile. Nothing has worked.

House is 2004 build, 3-storey, with small parapet wall around the edge of the roof.

I contacted a surveyor who has quoted £90 + VAT per hour for a defect survey, with an estimate of 3 to 5 hours required. That's a lot of money and I don't know accurate this will be. Are they likely to say "the problem is definitely X and you will need to do Y" or do they generally say "it could be X, Y, or Z so you may need to do A, B or C"?

We're at our wits' end! The black staining on the outside suggests to me that it's something to do with water coming down there, but I don't know it's getting in. Can anyone give any advice based on the pictures below? Thanks in advance!

(Apologies for sideways photos. I've tried several times but cannot for the life of me make them right-way-up.)

External photos:





Internal photos:

Top-floor bedroom



Middle-floor bedroom


NorthDave

2,355 posts

231 months

Friday 17th January 2020
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Im no specialist but have you not got a bit of an issue at the end of that gulley? It looks like the material which goes up the wall is damaged (behind the cobwebs). Does water coming off the roof not hit that and continue down the wall rather than being collected in the gulley and moving away?

The Surveyor

7,576 posts

236 months

Friday 17th January 2020
quotequote all
What an awful detail.

Unfortunately unless there is an obvious defect which was missed the last time it was looked at, any Surveyor visiting that will most likely give suggestions, especially as they will visit when it isn't raining!

Assuming that it is only this outlet that's causing problems, it is something that only a roofer or surveyor having a close inspection of the gutter lining, upstands, flashings, and the outlet detail can review. The easy defect would be if there is a blockage in the down-pipe hopper or where the outfall passes through the parapet, but i'm sure that would have been checked before.

If others were having the same problems it could be that the outlet through the parapet is too small to cope with heavy downfalls and the water is flooding the gutter..

romeogolf

Original Poster:

2,056 posts

118 months

Friday 17th January 2020
quotequote all
The Surveyor said:
What an awful detail.

Unfortunately unless there is an obvious defect which was missed the last time it was looked at, any Surveyor visiting that will most likely give suggestions, especially as they will visit when it isn't raining!

Assuming that it is only this outlet that's causing problems, it is something that only a roofer or surveyor having a close inspection of the gutter lining, upstands, flashings, and the outlet detail can review. The easy defect would be if there is a blockage in the down-pipe hopper or where the outfall passes through the parapet, but i'm sure that would have been checked before.

If others were having the same problems it could be that the outlet through the parapet is too small to cope with heavy downfalls and the water is flooding the gutter..
Thanks for the reply. Our immediate neighbours haven't had this issue, but we've not spoken to anyone else. Do you think the staining on the outside gable end is related to the internal issue? I think we've been quite focused on the gulley/gutters as an obvious area, but the staining on the outside has become more noticeable in recent weeks and I'm wondering if that's the point of entry.


Octoposse

2,152 posts

184 months

Friday 17th January 2020
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In torrential rain (and we've had some recently!), even with no blockages, the water in that gully could easily back up to 2-3" deep. Then overflow / penetrate weak spots that aren't obvious.

I'd be looking first at that . . . worth being up there in a very heavy shower, but take a solid health & safety approach if you are!

hyphen

26,262 posts

89 months

Friday 17th January 2020
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romeogolf said:
]
Why no lead anywhere? Thought all joins and overlaps are best covered with good old lead.

romeogolf

Original Poster:

2,056 posts

118 months

Friday 17th January 2020
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hyphen said:
Should the sides not be lined with lead? Rather than render.
I don't know, should it? laugh

I'm not at all well versed in building/construction, but all of the houses are built the same way.

Lotobear

6,232 posts

127 months

Friday 17th January 2020
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Has the surveyor allowed for a roof level inspection via cherry picker/tower scaffold? Not much point IMO if he/she hasn't

You've eliminated the copings and outlet by the previous work already done. Given there is no cover flashing visible to the tiles I would be looking at the tile/parapet side abutment detail and investigating the secret gutter or soaker arrangement under the tiles which presumably must be the detail protecting that junction. Is it just perspective or are there also narrow cuts to the tiles where they meet the upstand?

If it were me doing the inspection I would visit with a roofer and direct him to strip the tiles to the side abutment and observe what is revealed as he removes them - witness marks will be present where water has previously leaked in

ro250

2,734 posts

56 months

Friday 17th January 2020
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NorthDave said:
Im no specialist but have you not got a bit of an issue at the end of that gulley? It looks like the material which goes up the wall is damaged (behind the cobwebs). Does water coming off the roof not hit that and continue down the wall rather than being collected in the gulley and moving away?
That's what I thought. The build up of muck at the end and signs of overflow on the exterior wall suggest that this gulley overflows.

romeogolf

Original Poster:

2,056 posts

118 months

Friday 17th January 2020
quotequote all
Lotobear said:
Has the surveyor allowed for a roof level inspection via cherry picker/tower scaffold? Not much point IMO if he/she hasn't

You've eliminated the copings and outlet by the previous work already done. Given there is no cover flashing visible to the tiles I would be looking at the tile/parapet side abutment detail and investigating the secret gutter or soaker arrangement under the tiles which presumably must be the detail protecting that junction. Is it just perspective or are there also narrow cuts to the tiles where they meet the upstand?

If it were me doing the inspection I would visit with a roofer and direct him to strip the tiles to the side abutment and observe what is revealed as he removes them - witness marks will be present where water has previously leaked in
I replied to ask them if their costs allowed for roof level access or whether it would be a street-level inspection, but have not yet had a reply. Agreed that they need to be up there to be worthwhile having over.

With regards to your other point, I'm not entirely familiar with the phrasing. In layman's terms are you saying there's nothing obvious stopping water on the flat surface from slipping underneath the first row of roof tiles? And you're asking for the first row at the front of the house, and to the end of the house, to be lifted for an inspection?

romeogolf

Original Poster:

2,056 posts

118 months

Friday 17th January 2020
quotequote all
ro250 said:
NorthDave said:
Im no specialist but have you not got a bit of an issue at the end of that gulley? It looks like the material which goes up the wall is damaged (behind the cobwebs). Does water coming off the roof not hit that and continue down the wall rather than being collected in the gulley and moving away?
That's what I thought. The build up of muck at the end and signs of overflow on the exterior wall suggest that this gulley overflows.
Thanks both. I'm hoping a roofer will be over later today and I'll mention this for his view.

Lotobear

6,232 posts

127 months

Friday 17th January 2020
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romeogolf said:
I replied to ask them if their costs allowed for roof level access or whether it would be a street-level inspection, but have not yet had a reply. Agreed that they need to be up there to be worthwhile having over.

With regards to your other point, I'm not entirely familiar with the phrasing. In layman's terms are you saying there's nothing obvious stopping water on the flat surface from slipping underneath the first row of roof tiles? And you're asking for the first row at the front of the house, and to the end of the house, to be lifted for an inspection?
What I'm saying is the tile side abutment (where the sloping tiles meet the parapet flashing) appears vulnerable and it would be worthwhile lifting a number to check the detailing as it is what lies beneath that creates the waterproof junction at this point (the alternative detail involves a lead cover flashing which is dressed over the top of the tiles and is therefore visible but since that is not present there must be a 'secret gutter' or 'soaker' detail instead - such details need to be carefully formed to work correctly)

It would certainly be beneficial to also investigate the lower course(s) along the parapet gutter - the lead gutter lining should extend underneath that course for some distance up the slope and terminate with a tilt fillet/welt or other water check detail. As others have said if the gutter outlet size is marginal and water backs up during heavy rain/cloudburst conditions the water level in the gutter could build up and flood over the top edge of the gutter lining if the lining does not extend a sufficient distance up the slope.

(the parapet gutter should really have a wier overflow to reduce the risk of this happening if the outlet becomes blocked)

Personally I think the staining on the gable is just water run off where the raked coping meets the level coping and the joint creates a convenient run off point, ..but I may be wrong.

Your surveyor will not have allowed for a cherry picker as last time I hired one with an operator it cost around £400. Best therefore to be ready to undertake remedial work when you have it hired in order to make the best use of the cost.

wolfracesonic

6,940 posts

126 months

Friday 17th January 2020
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Have you got a Velux over looking the affected area OP, going by your first pic? If yes, buy yourself some fluorescent drain dye, put some in small paper bag (nothing that will block the outlet!) and throw it into the bottom of the gutter; when it rains the dye dissolves and if the problem is with the bottom of the gutter or more likely where it discharges through the wall you’ll have a nice green stain on your walls inside, sadly it looks you’ll be re-decorating anyway. If not, it’s an area you can rule out.

romeogolf

Original Poster:

2,056 posts

118 months

Friday 17th January 2020
quotequote all
wolfracesonic said:
Have you got a Velux over looking the affected area OP, going by your first pic? If yes, buy yourself some fluorescent drain dye, put some in small paper bag (nothing that will block the outlet!) and throw it into the bottom of the gutter; when it rains the dye dissolves and if the problem is with the bottom of the gutter or more likely where it discharges through the wall you’ll have a nice green stain on your walls inside, sadly it looks you’ll be re-decorating anyway. If not, it’s an area you can rule out.
Negative, photo taken by someone who went up there a year ago to clean the gutters as proof they'd been cleared!

Wacky Racer

38,099 posts

246 months

Friday 17th January 2020
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I would definitely look at the hopper and make sure it's not blocked by silt etc.

Aluminati

2,475 posts

57 months

Friday 17th January 2020
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The moss staining in this pic

https://thumbsnap.com/gMnZKHuy

Is it in direct relation to the affected area ?

I can’t identify the flashing detail to coping, i thought it was ubiflex, surely not slate ?

If it has bridged the drip throat on the coping, that’s not good.

Where the stain is, the step in the brickwork would cause water to focus on that point as it runs down due to the brick overhang.

And the front copings have been fitted the wrong way round biggrin


Carbon Sasquatch

4,582 posts

63 months

Friday 17th January 2020
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I'm confused (it happens often)

The second pic shows a down pipe with a hopper - and what looks like an opening in the parapet wall to drain into said hopper.

However, pic 2 shows no such opening or obvious way the water is exiting

What am I missing ?

MJNewton

1,728 posts

88 months

Friday 17th January 2020
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If you look carefully on the first pic there's a hole in the front parapet wall - tucked right into the corner.

Huntsman

8,028 posts

249 months

Friday 17th January 2020
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I don't suppose he would want to travel to Bournemuff, but Pete Longland of Abbey Roofing in Southampton would get up there and sort it.

I reckon you need the right roof man on the job, get a tower up. Tell em to crack on.

Carbon Sasquatch

4,582 posts

63 months

Friday 17th January 2020
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Ah - got it - makes more sense now