Grade 2 listed problems

[Gnevans]

Walk away.

[C Lee Farquar]

Are there any signs of dry rot or just conditions favourable to it?

Dry rot would be very expensive in a listed building that's had significant penetrating damp.

[Little Lofty]

You definitely need to know if it has dry rot before you buy not after.

[bennno]

Gullwings said:

So we've gone round with a builder/roofer, and the rough quote to fix the major structural issues is around 60k ... Disappointing considering this house was marketed as recently renovated and maintained to a high standard.

This includes
- Replace rear roof, repair chimney stacks x2
- Replace a few windows, repair all the rest
- lintel repairs, masonry repairs
- complete re render of rear elevation and left gable wall (three storeys)
- Stop movement between annex + main house wall, by fixing damp then repairing masonry
- Asbestos components removal and replacement
- Complete replacement of all gutters and rainwater goods. Must be cast iron
- And some other minor one off repairs like fixing deflection in some floors
- Lift floorboards of all rooms when redecorating to assess joists for dry rot. Expose timber in walls selectively to assess for dry rot.

I understand the sellers would prefer us to carry out repairs.... Would it be unreasonable to ask for 60k + 20k ish for worst case scenario? EA seems to think they'll barely drop 40k

Edited by Gullwings on Saturday 4th July 17:05

What’s it worth as is / with work done? Are you willing to have work done whilst owing it. Some of that work will take 6 months to get conservation officer approvals.

[TwistingMyMelon]

Blimey those repairs are only the starting point , but in any older building once you start pulling up floorboards lots of extra things will be found

I’d run a mile , unless I was experienced in older buildings. , unless it’s an amazing building

The estate agent works for the seller and has no interest in you , other than to get you to sign on the dotted line

[jason61c]

I'd say that list isn't 60k's worth of work. whats the builders experience?

If you like it, buy it, chances are you can live there for 30 years and not have to spend a single penny, if you go looking for bits to fix, you'll find them, you can take pride and joy in keeping the house standing for future generations.

if you can get £30k off, that'll sort most of the issues. or leave you with spare cash for the future when you do tackle them.

[LooneyTunes]

Gullwings said:

So we've gone round with a builder/roofer, and the rough quote to fix the major structural issues is around 60k ... Disappointing considering this house was marketed as recently renovated and maintained to a high standard.

This includes
- Replace rear roof, repair chimney stacks x2
- Replace a few windows, repair all the rest
- lintel repairs, masonry repairs
- complete re render of rear elevation and left gable wall (three storeys)
- Stop movement between annex + main house wall, by fixing damp then repairing masonry
- Asbestos components removal and replacement
- Complete replacement of all gutters and rainwater goods. Must be cast iron
- And some other minor one off repairs like fixing deflection in some floors
- Lift floorboards of all rooms when redecorating to assess joists for dry rot. Expose timber in walls selectively to assess for dry rot.

I understand the sellers would prefer us to carry out repairs.... Would it be unreasonable to ask for 60k + 20k ish for worst case scenario? EA seems to think they'll barely drop 40k

Edited by Gullwings on Saturday 4th July 17:05

Don’t take this the wrong way, but does your builder/roofer actually know what he’s talking about/are you sure he’s not bending you over?

For example, is the movement between walls recent/ongoing? (Lots of old places move during their life, foundations weren’t always used/sufficient, but often the movement seen can be decades old)
Why is he saying that gutters etc need to be replaced with cast iron? (Were there unauthorised changes from cast to plastic?)
And fixing deflection in floors... you should see some of mine!
Things like masonry/window repairs are an ongoing thing. Easy to over-restore... and spoil a property in the process.

The list of jobs is long and contains lots of invasive stuff so not surprised the vendor is saying they’re for you to do if you want them done.

[pquinn]

Deflection in floors can just be different ideas in what was acceptable when they were built, or just the effect of time.

The time to worry is when they move or you lift a board and find the main thing keeping the floor up is force of habit, and stuff has deteriorated to the point where it's basically floating.

I can honestly say that the stuff that was pointed out in a survey usually tended to end up pretty minor to sort, and the real horrors usually don't get noticed for what they really are - often because you have to be invasive to really see them.

Modified/covered/removed chimneys can be a source of all sort of things (damp, dodgy patched floors, a few tons of hovering masonry defying physics) and easy to overlook. The top of the stack needing fixing is easy to see but can be the literal tip of the iceberg.

[bennno]

jason61c said:

I'd say that list isn't 60k's worth of work. whats the builders experience?

If you like it, buy it, chances are you can live there for 30 years and not have to spend a single penny, if you go looking for bits to fix, you'll find them, you can take pride and joy in keeping the house standing for future generations.

if you can get £30k off, that'll sort most of the issues. or leave you with spare cash for the future when you do tackle them.

How on earth can you determine that given the scant info provided, I’ve just spent £25k on window repairs and £5k on cast guttering for starters, I’ve no idea on the scale of building being looked at.

[Gullwings]

C Lee Farquar said:

Are there any signs of dry rot or just conditions favourable to it?

Dry rot would be very expensive in a listed building that's had significant penetrating damp.

Surveyor said he thinks it's likely to feature dry rot due to the long standing damp issues around the chimneys and front elevation

Little Lofty said:

You definitely need to know if it has dry rot before you buy not after.

But how? Surveys can only guess, unless we expose the innards of the house we'll never know, the owners would never let anyone do that

bennno said:

What’s it worth as is / with work done? Are you willing to have work done whilst owing it. Some of that work will take 6 months to get conservation officer approvals.

Not sure there aren't a lot of houses like it. We offered on it on the assumption it was in great condition.

LooneyTunes said:

Don’t take this the wrong way, but does your builder/roofer actually know what he’s talking about/are you sure he’s not bending you over?

For example, is the movement between walls recent/ongoing? (Lots of old places move during their life, foundations weren’t always used/sufficient, but often the movement seen can be decades old)
Why is he saying that gutters etc need to be replaced with cast iron? (Were there unauthorised changes from cast to plastic?)
And fixing deflection in floors... you should see some of mine!
Things like masonry/window repairs are an ongoing thing. Easy to over-restore... and spoil a property in the process.

The list of jobs is long and contains lots of invasive stuff so not surprised the vendor is saying they’re for you to do if you want them done.

The surveyor flagged up all these issues, the builder just confirmed them.

I think without monitoring over months it's impossible to tell how old movement is, but it's assumed due to the levels of damp it's recent-ish.
Gutters are in poor condition, some plastic so non listed.


I agree with most on here, I think I'm getting cold feet. It's such a gorgeous house I know they'll sell it without much difficulty to some sucker who doesn't get a survey. It's just difficult to let go of the dream house

Edited by Gullwings on Saturday 4th July 22:14

[ChocolateFrog]

GT119 said:

ChocolateFrog said:

Last Visit said:

ChocolateFrog said:

My last house was listed and it will be my last.

Leave the expense and beurocratic hoops to others, there's plenty of nice non-listed houses about.

Or visit a stately home to get your fix.

Did the heritage team say no to the swimming pool and upvc windows?

We have added a large extention onto our grade 2 listed home, replaced windows that were rotten (just 2 not 13) , raised door frames and a few other bits, all tastefully done. Work with them not against them in my experience

Something like that

I wanted to replace the horrible front door that dated from circa 1970's, no architectural merit, was rotting along with being rattly and drafty.

Was refused. Replaced it anyway.

Sold house since, do not look back at all.

Being beholden to a council busy body in relation to your own home is not something I ever want to experience again.

I don't think selling the house releases you from your obligations during ownership. Changing the character of a listed building after being refused permission and then telling everyone about it wouldn't personally be high on my list of things to do today.

I won't lose too much sleep over it.

[Vanity Projects]

Gullwings said:

It's just difficult to let go of the dream house.

Perhaps try to think differently and reframe the situation.

It is not ‘the’ dream house. It is a house that on the surface fits your ‘dream’.

The dream house wouldn’t need (a dubiously estimated) £60k spending on it.

Easy from the outside to say keep looking but try not to get caught up in the emotion of it unless you’re prepared to commit.

I’ve had mine for 9 years and the way I rationalise it to the wife is that the cost of living in such a lovely/characterful house is one family holiday a year as there’s at least £5k a year goes in upkeep on one thing or another.

[Evoluzione]

It's quite simple.
Can you afford it? Can you afford it at double the amount quoted once more problems are discovered? Because they will be.
Can you afford the ongoing maintenance?
Answer yes = buy the place.
Answer no = Walk away.

G2L are for people who have lots of money and a taste, an interest, a need to preserve the past in a way it should be. If this isn't you then walk.
You've got to make the decision, no-one else. If you need to ask then walk away.

[LooneyTunes]

Gullwings said:

Gutters are in poor condition, some plastic so non listed.

Sorry, is someone telling you that the plastic ones need to be replaced with cast iron because the place is listed? If it being listed is the *only* basis they are using for telling you this then I’d be very wary of the advice they’re giving you as it’s not correct. I have both plastic, obviously a lot of it is not off the shelf Jewson, and cast around mine. Done as part of work that the CO was heavily involved in.

If you’re going to push ahead with this place, my suggestion would be to have a proper chat with the surveyor about what actually needs doing and when. You’re then best off finding advisers and tradesmen that are familiar with listed buildings to quote for and perform any work you want doing, otherwise you could find that you get told work needs doing when it doesn’t or, worse, they use the wrong approaches to the work.

As has been said, it’s often an expensive labour of love running a listed place (there is always another job that needs doing and some can be surprisingly expensive@). What hasn’t really been said is how rewarding that can be if it’s the right house...

@its often the detail or skills needed that cost the money. Painting intricate plasterwork takes time, stonemasons aren’t exactly ten a penny, etc...

[C Lee Farquar]

Gullwings said:

Surveyor said he thinks it's likely to feature dry rot due to the long standing damp issues around the chimneys and front elevation

That might be said of any house that has ever had penetrating damp. 'Likely' is a strange word to use though, penetrating damp is much more likely to cause wet rot.

Of course it's difficult for anyone on here to give you anything other than generic and anecdotal advice, as we know nothing about the actual house.

[JohnBRG]

This is (increasingly) a buyer's market. I'd walk, wait a year, buy something then.

[Gullwings]

Thanks all for the advice and insight. It's useful to hear these accounts from people who own listed buildings/experience in property and I've noted down a lot of advice.

This week I'll talk with the surveyor, perhaps get a dry rot specialist to come and assess, and chat with the conservation officer to see if she actually approved some of the additions to the house - esp plastic guttering and UPVC windows.

I agree with the fact it's a buyer's market, so if the vendors won't play ball I'm prepared to walk away.

[Lord Flashheart]

We live in a grade two stone building. To a certain extent, I feel you buy this type of property with heart not head, but obviously you can't just have a bottomless pit of money to spend on them, so costs do have to be considered. I see them as a slow burn, rather than let's make it perfect immediately, and something you'd be prepared to maybe rough it in a little. We've been in ours for 15 years and there's still lots to do, but it's just part of the ongoing upkeep and experience really. They're a bit like owning the kind of car that enthusiasts like to take apart every five minutes and spend their hard earned on, rather than the perfect and reliable production car. Obviously all houses need upkeep, but IMHO these are on a different level generally.
It's worth noting that you don't need permission to repair things, only to replace them. It might be possible, and significantly cheaper, to repair the sash windows rather than replace them. Presumably the majority of rot is at the bottom of them, and if so, that is likely to be repairable.

Edited by Lord Flashheart on Sunday 5th July 10:26

[basherX]

As an aside, there are a few bits of plastic guttering on mine, albeit the vast majority is still iron. I assume that a previous owner banged it up (where it can’t be seen by anyone but the owner). I suppose it’s possible it was there when the house was listed but I doubt it.

I’ll get around to replacing it at some point, although, in the last 8 years there’s always been something higher up the list. Which is rather the point- just because it’s listed doesn’t mean that everything needs to be restored on day 1. People have presumably been telling themselves that my house “will be finished soon” for ~400 years. It never has been and it never will be. There will always be a list of jobs. Owning a listed house is really just about being comfortable with and accepting that fact, albeit it does imply that they’re not suited to periods of short term ownership.

And with that, the sun’s just come out so if anyone wants me I’ll be up a ladder, painting the eaves.

[ClaphamGT3]

As a chartered building surveyor of nearly 30 years practice who has done a lot of historic/conservation work and owned a number of listed buildings, you need to treat historic buildings as you would treat a classic car; compared to a new build, an older property won't be as efficient, it won't be as cheap to run and it will give more problems than a modern one.

You also need to accept that all but the simplest work to an older property is a voyage of discovery - you just won't know what you're going to find until you open stuff up.

Finally - and this concerns me reading your opening post, you need to remember that historic buildings are organic systems - do one thing and it may have a consequence elsewhere - dpcs, upgraded windows and insulation, introduction of modern, rigid structural elements can all gravely upset the balance of an historic building