Grade 2 listed problems

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Gullwings

Original Poster:

399 posts

134 months

Tuesday 23rd June 2020
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Currently in a situation where our building survey has flagged up numerous issues with a property we are purchasing. The house is done up quite well so all of these issues were hidden.

All windows in the house (x15 sash) need to be replaced due to rot, roof needs replacing, chimney stack needs inspecting and repair etc etc

How long would all this take to fix, taking into account the need to get approval from the conservation authorities?

This is my first experience with a listed house, so would appreciate any takes on this!

Blakeatron

2,514 posts

172 months

Tuesday 23rd June 2020
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Months, more likely years - and lots and lots of cash.

You can budget £2k per sash and easily triple that depending on design.

LooneyTunes

6,781 posts

157 months

Tuesday 23rd June 2020
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Does the work really need doing or is it the surveyor covering his arse in the written report?

jason61c

5,978 posts

173 months

Tuesday 23rd June 2020
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was it a proper survey? independent?

Unexpected Item In The Bagging Area

7,015 posts

188 months

Tuesday 23rd June 2020
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LooneyTunes said:
Does the work really need doing or is it the surveyor covering his arse in the written report?
Exactly. When we bought our 230-year-old listed house a few years ago the survey report said that various issues needed to be remedied for example damp in a couple of places, but the damp specialist I had round after we moved in told me that not one of the problem areas needed attention.

Have you looked at the windows? All 15 being rotten sounds highly unlikely to me, and how bad can the roof be?!?

Gullwings

Original Poster:

399 posts

134 months

Tuesday 23rd June 2020
quotequote all
Yes we went with a local trusted surveyor who has a special interest in listed buildings. I can't be 100% sure he isn't just covering his ass, but he did seem quite shocked during the post survey rundown.

Unexpected Item In The Bagging Area said:
Exactly. When we bought our 230-year-old listed house a few years ago the survey report said that various issues needed to be remedied for example damp in a couple of places, but the damp specialist I had round after we moved in told me that not one of the problem areas needed attention.

Have you looked at the windows? All 15 being rotten sounds highly unlikely to me, and how bad can the roof be?!?
I've looked at the windows but know bugger all about them. They did look freshly painted-over though, which the surveyor suspected was to hide their real condition. In terms of the roof, apparently it's letting damp in and run down the front of the house.

Based on what you've said I think it might be worth getting a damp specialist to review it, at least for a second opinion/ detailed quotes. Why did your surveyor mention damp if there wasn't any?!

LooneyTunes

6,781 posts

157 months

Tuesday 23rd June 2020
quotequote all
So you spoke to him? If so, was the advice as bad as in the report? If so that would make me a bit nervous if it wasn’t telling me things I already knew.

Each time I’ve had reports done the discussion has been a lot more pragmatic about what needs to be done. Every single one has raised issues with roofing but the verbal feedback has been along the lines of “but I’d been there xxx years”.

Have to remember that old buildings weret built to the same standards as new ones so a few surprises or things that would be regarded as defects on modern builds are really to be expected.

Unexpected Item In The Bagging Area

7,015 posts

188 months

Tuesday 23rd June 2020
quotequote all
Gullwings said:
Why did your surveyor mention damp if there wasn't any?!
It was there, and probably had been for two centuries, but it wasn’t the issue his report made it out to be. We didn’t mind though as we negotiated £7k off the selling price for this and other bits of remedial work we didn’t need to have done smile

fuzzyyo

371 posts

160 months

Tuesday 23rd June 2020
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I couldn't believe the long list of caveats included in our property survey first house we bought. Wasnt worth the paper it was written on. Never bought one since.

JohnBRG

368 posts

170 months

Tuesday 23rd June 2020
quotequote all
Gullwings said:
Currently in a situation where our building survey has flagged up numerous issues with a property we are purchasing. The house is done up quite well so all of these issues were hidden.

All windows in the house (x15 sash) need to be replaced due to rot, roof needs replacing, chimney stack needs inspecting and repair etc etc

How long would all this take to fix, taking into account the need to get approval from the conservation authorities?

This is my first experience with a listed house, so would appreciate any takes on this!
Could easily be £50K just for the windows......replacing the entire roof!......I'd be looking for a huge price chip or walk away.

Vanity Projects

2,442 posts

160 months

Tuesday 23rd June 2020
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There’s an element of arse covering, particularly with old buildings. Ours is a 1750-ish Georgian house and the survey mentioned woodworm, damp, some rot to sash windows, and all sorts.

For example, the advice for the outside toilet suggested ‘replace roof, walls, door and window’.

The sash windows *may* be repairable, we had six sash at the front and got a set of joiners round who brought a crew of six for a week and repaired all the rot and reglazed the odd cracked window for £4,000 three years ago (we had scaffolding already in place for repointing so that shaved about a grand off).

I’ve been in mine 11 years now and have gradually fixed bits over that time. A lot of the damp was from a lack of understanding of old houses by previous owners (blocked cellar vents, blocked waves, etc).

If it’s a forever home and you’re willing to get stuck in yourself, just go for it.

I think in the time I’ve had mine, it’s probably had £60,000 spent on it in materials on remedial work with mostly my own labour. (Doesn’t include the new kitchen we’ve had done more recently).

It’s on the thread wiki if you want to skim to see what you might be in for...

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

Edited by Vanity Projects on Tuesday 23 June 22:55

Alucidnation

16,810 posts

169 months

Tuesday 23rd June 2020
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We refurbished a G2 a few years ago, and the CO insisted the rotting windows were repaired and would not allow the replacement of them even though it could be done to an exact match.

Two years later the miserable tt retired and the new CO approved the replacements.

bennno

11,504 posts

268 months

Tuesday 23rd June 2020
quotequote all
Gullwings said:
Currently in a situation where our building survey has flagged up numerous issues with a property we are purchasing. The house is done up quite well so all of these issues were hidden.

All windows in the house (x15 sash) need to be replaced due to rot, roof needs replacing, chimney stack needs inspecting and repair etc etc

How long would all this take to fix, taking into account the need to get approval from the conservation authorities?

This is my first experience with a listed house, so would appreciate any takes on this!
Oddly i've managed to buy two grade ii listed properties in the last year, one in a national park which is doubly difficult, but in the course of this I've worked with three conservation officers.

It varies wildly, in one i've been permitted to add alumininium bifolds in place of non original [1980's] french doors on a 17th century barn in a conservation area following a 12 week listed building consent application, on the other it was mandated that I have the believed original windows repaired in situ - which we did and doesnt technically require approval, although when taken apart for repairs their wasnt much left.

So in summary as a general principle you are free to repair whats there on an as is basis, but its more complex getting permission entirely replace or modify. You will need an architect knowledgable on listed building consent to assist you.

Did the surveyor that you used have specific experience in listed / historic buildings?

Edited by bennno on Tuesday 23 June 23:13

anonymous-user

53 months

Tuesday 23rd June 2020
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I would say it very much depends on two things, your surveyor and the attitude of your conservation officer. When you say 'surveyor' do you mean a structural engineer? That's the only person I would employ to check out the viability of an old, listed house. A surveyor will be in full arse covering mode and delegate to the specialists (damp, electrical, insect infestations, bats, etc who all want to create some work in the future). He will charge you £, and defer responsibility. The questions I would be asking (all followed by the statement 'While I'm still alive'). Is it going to fall down? Is the roof going to collapse? Will it flood? Will the death watch beetle make the structure collapse? etc etc.
I think I'm correct in saying that with Grade 2 stuff, you can replace like for like without any sort of permissions if it is replace and repair. If you want to create a 'light filled air box to connect the outside to the inside', you'll need permission, but not to repair/replace your roof with the same materials.
Our last house was listed. I had an expensive, inch by inch survey done because I was terrified about the process. Obviously it was damp riddled (£££), infested (££) and the windows were all rotten (£££££). I took off the vinyl wall coverings, that solved the damp issue. I had the place treated for woodworm and death watch beetle before we moved in (about £600). I had the windows painted. We thought they were pretty bad, but 10 years after we'd moved (having lived there for 10), the latest owners are still living with them.
These days, I wouldn't bother with a survey. But I would use a structural engineer to tell me if it was going to be an expensive mistake.

dhutch

14,198 posts

196 months

Tuesday 23rd June 2020
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I too find it very hard to believe that all of the windows look good enough to have not aroused your suspicions during a viewing, and yet now mysteriously needs total replacement. Some repairs maybe, but the whole lot all scrap? Seems unlikely.

Ditto the roof even if it's pouring in and has been for years (?) a whole new roof?

Our survey said a lot of nonsense. Replace the five year old viessman system boiler with a combi, greenhouse was scrap (just needed a clean, etc. Take with a pinch of salt, but arrange a second viewing with a joiner who repairs windows.


TwistingMyMelon

6,385 posts

204 months

Wednesday 24th June 2020
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Check for bat droppings If the roof is compromised , even more so if the property is and where rural/ quiet .

It’s difficult you need to weigh up best case vs worst case , with older (and even more with listed) buildings experience helps you judge the risks and costs involved

rlw

3,321 posts

236 months

Wednesday 24th June 2020
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[quote=skintemma]

I think I'm correct in saying that with Grade 2 stuff, you can replace like for like without any sort of permissions if it is replace and repair.


I think you may be wrong. We all do it but I'm not sure it's right.

bennno

11,504 posts

268 months

Wednesday 24th June 2020
quotequote all
rlw]kintemma said:

I think I'm correct in saying that with Grade 2 stuff, you can replace like for like without any sort of permissions if it is replace and repair.

I think you may be wrong. We all do it but I'm not sure it's right.
Incorrect you can repair what's there but replacement needs approval. Can become a slightly grey area.

Mr Roper

12,985 posts

193 months

Wednesday 24th June 2020
quotequote all
We're in a similar spot.

Our independent survey is being done tomorrow on a 300 year old, timber framed, Grade 2 listed cottage.

I'm expecting some warts, just hope the house doesn't throw a wobbler.

Fingers crossed.



Rotaree

1,146 posts

260 months

Wednesday 24th June 2020
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Having owned listed houses and houses in conservation areas I tend to believe that surveys aren't worth the trouble, in my experience surveyors will always 'big-up' possible concerns to avoid litigation, making the survey meaningless. I don't bother now and just take a builder round on second viewing.

If you have concerns about the roof and windows I would get a roofer and joiner to assess them and price any repairs for you, that way, if there is work required, you'll have the necessary ammunition to negotiate the asking price and, if there's nothing to be done you'll have peace of mind. It might also be worth having a chat with the conservation officer to get their opinion on what you may or may not be allowed to do, they tend to vary from area to area.