Grade 2 listed problems
Discussion
skintemma said:
I think I'm correct in saying that with Grade 2 stuff, you can replace like for like without any sort of permissions
That, I’m afraid is catastrophically incorrect - to do so would be a criminal offence.Back to the OP - do all 15 windows really require replacement? I’d get a sash window renovation company in to look at them. Expect to pay something in the region of £500-£1000 per window for a full overhaul (unless the windows are huge)
Having them renovated is quite satisfying because you get to retain lovely original cylinder glass (assuming it’s there now). The conservation officer will love you, see that you are a good custodian and in my experience - give you an easier ride on some of the other works you may wish to do.
If replacements really are needed, expect to pay around £1500 per window.
I’ve been restoring/developing listed buildings for 13 years and I would advise you to research the building conservation basic principles, possibly join SPAB (excellent free advice for members) and be as open minded as you can with your conservation officer (this can be difficult at times!)
Edited by yellowtang on Wednesday 24th June 12:41
In my experience (currently on my second listed house, and third house over 200 years old), a survey is worth doing to highlight any serious issues. Just remember that they assessing what I'll assume is a 200+ year old house based on today's building standards, and you'll start to see where some of the scary stuff comes from.
Our latest was assessed by a local co who specialise in old/listed buildings and if we'd taken the survey too literally we would have never bought the place.
Take it as some useful guidance for stuff that might need doing over the next few years, but if you're worried it's worth getting a second opinion from someone with a common-sense approach. Chances are, once you're in, you'll uncover all sorts of stuff that the survey doesn't even mention anyway
Our latest was assessed by a local co who specialise in old/listed buildings and if we'd taken the survey too literally we would have never bought the place.
Take it as some useful guidance for stuff that might need doing over the next few years, but if you're worried it's worth getting a second opinion from someone with a common-sense approach. Chances are, once you're in, you'll uncover all sorts of stuff that the survey doesn't even mention anyway
By the like for like comment, I was simply saying if you have, for example a Collyweston roof that is falling in, you generally don't need permission to take it off, put it on again and replace any un-useable tiles with matching. You would need permission to raise the ridge though. Happy to be corrected though.
Replacing roofing felt is generally ok because the felt is not considered a permanent part of the building. Replacing a few broken tiles (like for like) is also ok because that would be considered maintenance.
Replacing a sash window, even like for like would require LBC because it would not be considered maintenance and it would mean permanently removing part of the building fabric.
Replacing a sash window, even like for like would require LBC because it would not be considered maintenance and it would mean permanently removing part of the building fabric.
I'd echo a lot of what's above- especially in not necessarily being dictated to by a surveyor's report unless they have a specialism in listed buildings.
For what it's worth, being the owner of a Grade II building, I think that the state of the windows is a good indication of how the property generally has been maintained. Keeping windows good for decades (or more) is not easy and requires commitment. Set against that is that they're expensive to replace. Therefore you would think that people would be incentivised to do things properly, but unfortunately many choose to leave it as a problem for the next owner. So much for custodianship.
My house is mid c.17th and I had all of the casement windows out last year to inspect them, strip off the Weathershield (…) and repaint. I could see that it's unlikely that they'd been removed previously and could date the hinges to the 1950s. A couple required repair. One was so destroyed by rot that it had to be replaced, re-using the original glass. Smallest window in the house = £600. Not including fitting, which I did myself.
I'm now at the point where I'm comfortable that everything is solid and well painted and indeed the same is true for all of the exterior woodwork. I hope. It's "just" a case of a rolling maintenance cycle from here on in.
The thing to remember with old houses, particularly listed ones, is that you need to go into it with your eyes wide open about the level of maintenance required and decide if you're game for that yourself (mostly I enjoy it) or whether you'll be willing to stump up for others to do it. And by others, I mean trusted trades who aren't going to do a quick bodge which just exacerbates a pre-existing problem (ask me how I know).
For what it's worth, being the owner of a Grade II building, I think that the state of the windows is a good indication of how the property generally has been maintained. Keeping windows good for decades (or more) is not easy and requires commitment. Set against that is that they're expensive to replace. Therefore you would think that people would be incentivised to do things properly, but unfortunately many choose to leave it as a problem for the next owner. So much for custodianship.
My house is mid c.17th and I had all of the casement windows out last year to inspect them, strip off the Weathershield (…) and repaint. I could see that it's unlikely that they'd been removed previously and could date the hinges to the 1950s. A couple required repair. One was so destroyed by rot that it had to be replaced, re-using the original glass. Smallest window in the house = £600. Not including fitting, which I did myself.
I'm now at the point where I'm comfortable that everything is solid and well painted and indeed the same is true for all of the exterior woodwork. I hope. It's "just" a case of a rolling maintenance cycle from here on in.
The thing to remember with old houses, particularly listed ones, is that you need to go into it with your eyes wide open about the level of maintenance required and decide if you're game for that yourself (mostly I enjoy it) or whether you'll be willing to stump up for others to do it. And by others, I mean trusted trades who aren't going to do a quick bodge which just exacerbates a pre-existing problem (ask me how I know).
Edited by basherX on Wednesday 24th June 13:33
Fully agree with the comment about windows indicating general condition: things like that show that generally things have been allowed to slide. Once you start with a house like that, you will keep finding things wrong.
My own view is that for a listed building a report from an ordinary building surveyor is somewhere between useless and misleading. A good and experienced conservation architect is a far better bet -- there is a lot of judgement in telling what is superficial or minor (eg, damp caused by condensation) and what is a real problem.
Don't feel any embarrassment in making a (revised) offer to reflect condition. Many sellers don't understand how bad they have let things get or what it would cost to fix it. But it needs to be logical and spelt out -- this would be worth £x in good condition, but it is not, and will take at least £y to sort out, so allowing for a contingency of £z, I'm prepared to offer £x-y-z.
For what it is worth, I am 4.5 years into the restoration of a Grade II listed house on which not much was spent since the mid-1960s.
My own view is that for a listed building a report from an ordinary building surveyor is somewhere between useless and misleading. A good and experienced conservation architect is a far better bet -- there is a lot of judgement in telling what is superficial or minor (eg, damp caused by condensation) and what is a real problem.
Don't feel any embarrassment in making a (revised) offer to reflect condition. Many sellers don't understand how bad they have let things get or what it would cost to fix it. But it needs to be logical and spelt out -- this would be worth £x in good condition, but it is not, and will take at least £y to sort out, so allowing for a contingency of £z, I'm prepared to offer £x-y-z.
For what it is worth, I am 4.5 years into the restoration of a Grade II listed house on which not much was spent since the mid-1960s.
My surveyor said to me something like, "It is unlikely this house has [modern] foundations. The house is leaning, however it has not fallen over in the last 400 years and is unlikely to do so in the coming years". He also provided other valuable insights such as that the house was North-facing- do people really need that pointed out to them?
Edited by basherX on Wednesday 24th June 15:37
We bought our Grade 2 listed 400 yo house some 16 years ago having owned 3 brand new houses previously so completely listed virgins.
The survey was ok albeit bit scary in places such as the need for the sole plate at the front to be replaced ( acro props and replacement of beams and plaster work interesting few weeks ) and the roof ( or some of ) would need replacing at some point ,one gable end needed work etc.
I actually asked said Surveyor ( I would never buy such a property without one ) was there really anything to stop me buying it -the answer was if you don't I will !
As with the other replies you certainly need to be on friendly terms with the listed buildings officer, find a good builder that has worked on similar and make sure you have a pot of money to allocate over time on repairs.
Good luck.
The survey was ok albeit bit scary in places such as the need for the sole plate at the front to be replaced ( acro props and replacement of beams and plaster work interesting few weeks ) and the roof ( or some of ) would need replacing at some point ,one gable end needed work etc.
I actually asked said Surveyor ( I would never buy such a property without one ) was there really anything to stop me buying it -the answer was if you don't I will !
As with the other replies you certainly need to be on friendly terms with the listed buildings officer, find a good builder that has worked on similar and make sure you have a pot of money to allocate over time on repairs.
Good luck.
Ours is 2* listed. You have to change your attitude to maintenance. I just give the conservation bloke at the council a quick call to ask advice first. They are usually incredibly helpful if they believe that you genuinely want to preserve the building. They become very unhelpful if you want to ruin it.
My CO was spectacularly uninterested in talking to me when we moved in, saying that everything needed to be submitted in writing and she'd respond accordingly. It's been quite frustrating because we miss the guidance that so many others get and, being listed newbies, were very unclear on the boundaries even though I'm approaching ownership/maintenance with honest intentions. The various websites can be helpful but really so much depends on the specific circumstances of the property that it would have been helpful to have been able just to pick up the phone at times.
ChocolateFrog said:
My last house was listed and it will be my last.
Leave the expense and beurocratic hoops to others, there's plenty of nice non-listed houses about.
Or visit a stately home to get your fix.
Did the heritage team say no to the swimming pool and upvc windows? Leave the expense and beurocratic hoops to others, there's plenty of nice non-listed houses about.
Or visit a stately home to get your fix.
We have added a large extention onto our grade 2 listed home, replaced windows that were rotten (just 2 not 13) , raised door frames and a few other bits, all tastefully done. Work with them not against them in my experience
basherX said:
My surveyor said to me something like, "It is unlikely this house has [modern] foundations. The house is leaning, however it has not fallen over in the last 400 years and is unlikely to do so in the coming years". He also provided other valuable insights such as that the house was North-facing- do people really need that pointed out to them?
To counterbalance, the report from mine was very long and included detailed commentary and photographs of places we’d not have ventured ourselves on a viewing. Yes there were some things that would have been obvious to anyone looking but there was a high degree of pragmatism (especially when we spoke to him). Tbh, the report reads like the work of someone very knowledgeable and who enjoys his job. Completely different league than a walk round with a builder...Edited by basherX on Wednesday 24th June 15:37
Last Visit said:
ChocolateFrog said:
My last house was listed and it will be my last.
Leave the expense and beurocratic hoops to others, there's plenty of nice non-listed houses about.
Or visit a stately home to get your fix.
Did the heritage team say no to the swimming pool and upvc windows? Leave the expense and beurocratic hoops to others, there's plenty of nice non-listed houses about.
Or visit a stately home to get your fix.
We have added a large extention onto our grade 2 listed home, replaced windows that were rotten (just 2 not 13) , raised door frames and a few other bits, all tastefully done. Work with them not against them in my experience
I wanted to replace the horrible front door that dated from circa 1970's, no architectural merit, was rotting along with being rattly and drafty.
Was refused. Replaced it anyway.
Sold house since, do not look back at all.
Being beholden to a council busy body in relation to your own home is not something I ever want to experience again.
Echoing some views on here, our estate agent and vendors have cast serious doubt on the magnitude of the surveyors claims.
The vendor provided a number of photographs which supposedly cast doubt on the surveyors observations.
We still back our surveyor to be honest, but will get some additional experts to look over, and possibly quantify any repair costs (if applicable)
The vendor provided a number of photographs which supposedly cast doubt on the surveyors observations.
We still back our surveyor to be honest, but will get some additional experts to look over, and possibly quantify any repair costs (if applicable)
Gullwings said:
Echoing some views on here, our estate agent and vendors have cast serious doubt on the magnitude of the surveyors claims.
Being pedantic, are they really YOUR estate agent (I.e. a home search agency) or working for the seller? If the latter it’s in their interests to play down the concerns...(Await all usual stuff about how EAs only work for themselves)
Gullwings said:
Echoing some views on here, our estate agent and vendors have cast serious doubt on the magnitude of the surveyors claims.
The vendor provided a number of photographs which supposedly cast doubt on the surveyors observations.
We still back our surveyor to be honest, but will get some additional experts to look over, and possibly quantify any repair costs (if applicable)
Here is the link to the page on the Historic England website covering maintenance:The vendor provided a number of photographs which supposedly cast doubt on the surveyors observations.
We still back our surveyor to be honest, but will get some additional experts to look over, and possibly quantify any repair costs (if applicable)
https://historicengland.org.uk/advice/hpg/assistan...
You should also navigate around that website to get a better understanding of your obligations as an owner. They do offer specific advice for any proposed works and it's possible the Conservation Officer will contact them anyway once you submit a planning application, essentially to delegate the decision making to them.
As said earlier in the thread, you would need Listed Building Consent to replace the windows with replica of similar ones, if you go down that route. Note that Listed Building Consent doesn't attract any planning fees, although you will need to supply all of the necessary documentation, including a Heritage Statement, to submit the application, so you will need to either prepare these yourself or pay someone to do it.
ChocolateFrog said:
Last Visit said:
ChocolateFrog said:
My last house was listed and it will be my last.
Leave the expense and beurocratic hoops to others, there's plenty of nice non-listed houses about.
Or visit a stately home to get your fix.
Did the heritage team say no to the swimming pool and upvc windows? Leave the expense and beurocratic hoops to others, there's plenty of nice non-listed houses about.
Or visit a stately home to get your fix.
We have added a large extention onto our grade 2 listed home, replaced windows that were rotten (just 2 not 13) , raised door frames and a few other bits, all tastefully done. Work with them not against them in my experience
I wanted to replace the horrible front door that dated from circa 1970's, no architectural merit, was rotting along with being rattly and drafty.
Was refused. Replaced it anyway.
Sold house since, do not look back at all.
Being beholden to a council busy body in relation to your own home is not something I ever want to experience again.
ChocolateFrog said:
Last Visit said:
ChocolateFrog said:
My last house was listed and it will be my last.
Leave the expense and beurocratic hoops to others, there's plenty of nice non-listed houses about.
Or visit a stately home to get your fix.
Did the heritage team say no to the swimming pool and upvc windows? Leave the expense and beurocratic hoops to others, there's plenty of nice non-listed houses about.
Or visit a stately home to get your fix.
We have added a large extention onto our grade 2 listed home, replaced windows that were rotten (just 2 not 13) , raised door frames and a few other bits, all tastefully done. Work with them not against them in my experience
I wanted to replace the horrible front door that dated from circa 1970's, no architectural merit, was rotting along with being rattly and drafty.
Was refused. Replaced it anyway.
Sold house since, do not look back at all.
Being beholden to a council busy body in relation to your own home is not something I ever want to experience again.
We have generally had to deal with one who is dreadful. She has made the most unfathomable decisions and regularly displayed remarkable ignorance about architectural history. We have never tried to do anything unsympathetic or out of keeping and have, if anything, been largely trying to tie in later additions in a more coherent manner. This might be the problem - she was keen on the idea of a modern glass box (suggested by our architect, to our horror). She was quite notorious amongst the architects we used - they would sigh when they realised they would need to work with her.
I would suggest trying to meet the Listed Buildings Officer at the property before you buy and discussing what you need to do and plan to do. This will give you a sense of their attitude and amenability to you achieving what you want to achieve.
So we've gone round with a builder/roofer, and the rough quote to fix the major structural issues is around 60k ... Disappointing considering this house was marketed as recently renovated and maintained to a high standard.
This includes
- Replace rear roof, repair chimney stacks x2
- Replace a few windows, repair all the rest
- lintel repairs, masonry repairs
- complete re render of rear elevation and left gable wall (three storeys)
- Stop movement between annex + main house wall, by fixing damp then repairing masonry
- Asbestos components removal and replacement
- Complete replacement of all gutters and rainwater goods. Must be cast iron
- And some other minor one off repairs like fixing deflection in some floors
- Lift floorboards of all rooms when redecorating to assess joists for dry rot. Expose timber in walls selectively to assess for dry rot.
I understand the sellers would prefer us to carry out repairs.... Would it be unreasonable to ask for 60k + 20k ish for worst case scenario? EA seems to think they'll barely drop 40k
This includes
- Replace rear roof, repair chimney stacks x2
- Replace a few windows, repair all the rest
- lintel repairs, masonry repairs
- complete re render of rear elevation and left gable wall (three storeys)
- Stop movement between annex + main house wall, by fixing damp then repairing masonry
- Asbestos components removal and replacement
- Complete replacement of all gutters and rainwater goods. Must be cast iron
- And some other minor one off repairs like fixing deflection in some floors
- Lift floorboards of all rooms when redecorating to assess joists for dry rot. Expose timber in walls selectively to assess for dry rot.
I understand the sellers would prefer us to carry out repairs.... Would it be unreasonable to ask for 60k + 20k ish for worst case scenario? EA seems to think they'll barely drop 40k
Edited by Gullwings on Saturday 4th July 17:05
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