Discussion
dmsims said:
Enphase have effectively shut down the DIY market
The cheapo Chinese inverters are a lottery
Victron is good, you can shop around but can be a steepish learning curve with very limited choice if you want on grid
https://midsummerwholesale.co.uk/ have been good and https://diysolarforum.com/ is worth reading (even with USA bias)
interesting links - if you try and fill a basket on the midsummer one a fair bit (including mundane stiff like clamps) is unavailable. The cheapo Chinese inverters are a lottery
Victron is good, you can shop around but can be a steepish learning curve with very limited choice if you want on grid
https://midsummerwholesale.co.uk/ have been good and https://diysolarforum.com/ is worth reading (even with USA bias)
How have Enphase shut down the DIY market? They aren’t the only inverter?
There seem to be 550W panels on ebay and inverters - are these junk?
Feels like a bit of a minefield.
If you don’t sell back to the grid, can a solar battery install be quite simple for an average electrician? Is retrospective MCS possible?
Seems frustratingly hard to do something actually quite simple. Hardest bit seems to be working at height on the roof hence needing to het scaffolding etc.
Is there a good explanation as to how this actually fits to your meter/consumer unit?
TDK-C60 said:
interesting links - if you try and fill a basket on the midsummer one a fair bit (including mundane stiff like clamps) is unavailable.
How have Enphase shut down the DIY market? They aren’t the only inverter?
There seem to be 550W panels on ebay and inverters - are these junk?
Feels like a bit of a minefield.
If you don’t sell back to the grid, can a solar battery install be quite simple for an average electrician? Is retrospective MCS possible?
Seems frustratingly hard to do something actually quite simple. Hardest bit seems to be working at height on the roof hence needing to het scaffolding etc.
Is there a good explanation as to how this actually fits to your meter/consumer unit?
In terms of the 500W+ panels I have found decent brands with that sort of output (JA Solar 540W for example) but the issue is they are much bigger. From the research I have done the panels all have very similar outputs of 200-209w per square metre. Would be interested to hear if anyone else has found anything better as when I do finalise my choice I want the best panels even if the cost is higher as it will pay in the long run.How have Enphase shut down the DIY market? They aren’t the only inverter?
There seem to be 550W panels on ebay and inverters - are these junk?
Feels like a bit of a minefield.
If you don’t sell back to the grid, can a solar battery install be quite simple for an average electrician? Is retrospective MCS possible?
Seems frustratingly hard to do something actually quite simple. Hardest bit seems to be working at height on the roof hence needing to het scaffolding etc.
Is there a good explanation as to how this actually fits to your meter/consumer unit?
Dave726 said:
You’ve got to love these forums. Because it doesn’t work for you, anyone else that is in favour of it (especially those that it does clearly make sense for) hasn’t done any work on the issue (even though you admit you don’t have a smart meter and have only done fag packet analysis…) and is a ‘fanbois’.
Brilliant.
My break even period is 5.5 years at todays electricity prices which equates to a ROI of 18%. I’d be delighted to hear why you think that’s a bad idea for me, or any other ‘fanbois’ ?? in a similar situation.
To be fair at least he has used some realistic figures to understand what he can consume directly and from a battery if that’s added. I think his figures are pretty reflective of what the average user can achieve.Brilliant.
My break even period is 5.5 years at todays electricity prices which equates to a ROI of 18%. I’d be delighted to hear why you think that’s a bad idea for me, or any other ‘fanbois’ ?? in a similar situation.
IMHO too many installers are serving up Koolaid and consumers are only too happy to drink it. I posted up some real world data and flagged up some of the Koolaid figures and a few people threw bricks at it because it wasn’t what they wanted to hear. No worries; we’re all entitled to an opinion. But please do post up some actual data after a year. In God we trust; everyone else bring data. Or something like that.
And all this talk of ROI… ROI (Return On Investment) is zero (actually negative) until the payback point is reached. After that annualised ROI is (roughly) a function of what was saved post payback point divided by the amount spent divided by the number of years that took.
So if a 10K system saves 2K per year the payback point is 5 years. At the end of year 6 the annualised ROI is 2/10/6 = 3.33%. After 10 years it’s 10/10/10 = 10%. 10%/year is good but you have to wait a bit. In 20 years you might be laughing - 30/10/20 = 15%/year. All effectively tax free. Coolio. But eroded by replacement inverter and battery costs.
AW10 said:
To be fair at least he has used some realistic figures to understand what he can consume directly and from a battery if that’s added. I think his figures are pretty reflective of what the average user can achieve.
IMHO too many installers are serving up Koolaid and consumers are only too happy to drink it. I posted up some real world data and flagged up some of the Koolaid figures and a few people threw bricks at it because it wasn’t what they wanted to hear. No worries; we’re all entitled to an opinion. But please do post up some actual data after a year. In God we trust; everyone else bring data. Or something like that.
And all this talk of ROI… ROI (Return On Investment) is zero (actually negative) until the payback point is reached. After that annualised ROI is (roughly) a function of what was saved post payback point divided by the amount spent divided by the number of years that took.
So if a 10K system saves 2K per year the payback point is 5 years. At the end of year 6 the annualised ROI is 2/10/6 = 3.33%. After 10 years it’s 10/10/10 = 10%. 10%/year is good but you have to wait a bit. In 20 years you might be laughing - 30/10/20 = 15%/year. All effectively tax free. Coolio. But eroded by replacement inverter and battery costs.
Thumbs upIMHO too many installers are serving up Koolaid and consumers are only too happy to drink it. I posted up some real world data and flagged up some of the Koolaid figures and a few people threw bricks at it because it wasn’t what they wanted to hear. No worries; we’re all entitled to an opinion. But please do post up some actual data after a year. In God we trust; everyone else bring data. Or something like that.
And all this talk of ROI… ROI (Return On Investment) is zero (actually negative) until the payback point is reached. After that annualised ROI is (roughly) a function of what was saved post payback point divided by the amount spent divided by the number of years that took.
So if a 10K system saves 2K per year the payback point is 5 years. At the end of year 6 the annualised ROI is 2/10/6 = 3.33%. After 10 years it’s 10/10/10 = 10%. 10%/year is good but you have to wait a bit. In 20 years you might be laughing - 30/10/20 = 15%/year. All effectively tax free. Coolio. But eroded by replacement inverter and battery costs.
TDK-C60 said:
interesting links - if you try and fill a basket on the midsummer one a fair bit (including mundane stiff like clamps) is unavailable.
How have Enphase shut down the DIY market? They aren’t the only inverter?
Quite, there's a huge choice of kit. Getting stock can be tricky and prices are going up but it does seem to be flowing in.How have Enphase shut down the DIY market? They aren’t the only inverter?
TDK-C60 said:
There seem to be 550W panels on ebay and inverters - are these junk?
Feels like a bit of a minefield.
Avoid eBay or Amazon for solar stuff, that IS a minefield, just use one of the reputably companies like Midsummer, ITS, Trade Sparky, Bimble etc.Feels like a bit of a minefield.
TDK-C60 said:
If you don’t sell back to the grid, can a solar battery install be quite simple for an average electrician? Is retrospective MCS possible?
Most regular electricians don't get involved with solar/battery stuff, you will need a specialist. Retrospective MCS is impossible under the terms of the scheme, since it's an end-to-end certificate from the suppliers, design, contracts, installation and warranties etc. BUT there are plenty of reports of shady companies in the scheme so probably anything is possible!TDK-C60 said:
Is there a good explanation as to how this actually fits to your meter/consumer unit?
For a grid-tie system (whether battery or solar or a "hybrid" unit) basically it is fitted in parallel to the incoming supply after the meter. The most common method is to fit a henley block on the meter tails (which go between the meter and consumer unit) and then run tails to a second consumer unit where the inverter is then wired to. The power generated then flows "back out" the tails and into the consumer unit, or the grid. Your home will use the solar/battery power in preference to the grid merely because that's how electricity works! (An occasionally seen bodge is to wire an inverter into a MCB in the existing consumer unit, but that has all sorts of problems)Edited by Gareth79 on Wednesday 7th September 21:10
Dave726 said:
You’ve got to love these forums. Because it doesn’t work for you, anyone else that is in favour of it (especially those that it does clearly make sense for) hasn’t done any work on the issue (even though you admit you don’t have a smart meter and have only done fag packet analysis…) and is a ‘fanbois’.
Brilliant.
My break even period is 5.5 years at todays electricity prices which equates to a ROI of 18%. I’d be delighted to hear why you think that’s a bad idea for me, or any other ‘fanbois’ ?? in a similar situation.
I'd be delighted to see your breakdown or record of actual performance over a year of actual weather and actual consumption.Brilliant.
My break even period is 5.5 years at todays electricity prices which equates to a ROI of 18%. I’d be delighted to hear why you think that’s a bad idea for me, or any other ‘fanbois’ ?? in a similar situation.
I'm sure it would be helpful to lots of people trying to understand where their personal consumption patterns fit in.
The only systems I've seen giving a decent payback, proven by day-by-day data, are those where people (or more often, businesses), are using a lot of electricity in the daytime.
And some of those would do better to look at reducing their consumption.
A lot of people are just doomed to generate power in the Summer when they don't need it, and sell it cheap, without really denting their bills.
To pay back in 5.5 years, that means what? in simple terms? about a grand decrease in electricity bill per year.
A lot of people are not paying a grand in the first place.
And solar doesn't perform on 100% of days, it's that simple.
If you're really saving a grand, your starting point needs to be something like using two grands worth of electricity every year, with daytime/summer bias.
Which just isn't your average domestic situation, but I know people who've hit that spot for offices, workshops etc.
And as I said, an EV that's parked next to the panels everyday can make an interesting case.
TDK-C60 said:
There seem to be 550W panels on ebay and inverters - are these junk?
Feels like a bit of a minefield.
If you intend to install the panels yourself one thing often overlooked is that if you use large panels, like the 550 watt, they weigh around 28Kg each, and are about about 2 x 1 metre in size, and you get to carry them up a ladder. Feels like a bit of a minefield.
Just something to bear in mind
Gareth79 said:
TDK-C60 said:
interesting links - if you try and fill a basket on the midsummer one a fair bit (including mundane stiff like clamps) is unavailable.
How have Enphase shut down the DIY market? They aren’t the only inverter?
Quite, there's a huge choice of kit. Getting stock can be tricky and prices are going up but it does seem to be flowing in.How have Enphase shut down the DIY market? They aren’t the only inverter?
TDK-C60 said:
There seem to be 550W panels on ebay and inverters - are these junk?
Feels like a bit of a minefield.
Avoid eBay or Amazon for solar stuff, that IS a minefield, just use one of the reputably companies like Midsummer, ITS, Trade Sparky, Bimble etc.Feels like a bit of a minefield.
TDK-C60 said:
If you don’t sell back to the grid, can a solar battery install be quite simple for an average electrician? Is retrospective MCS possible?
Most regular electricians don't get involved with solar/battery stuff, you will need a specialist. Retrospective MCS is impossible under the terms of the scheme, since it's an end-to-end certificate from the suppliers, design, contracts, installation and warranties etc. BUT there are plenty of reports of shady companies in the scheme so probably anything is possible!TDK-C60 said:
Is there a good explanation as to how this actually fits to your meter/consumer unit?
For a grid-tie system (whether battery or solar or a "hybrid" unit) basically it is fitted in parallel to the incoming supply after the meter. The most common method is to fit a henley block on the meter tails (which go between the meter and consumer unit) and then run tails to a second consumer unit where the inverter is then wired to. The power generated then flows "back out" the tails and into the consumer unit, or the grid. Your home will use the solar/battery power in preference to the grid merely because that's how electricity works! (An occasionally seen bodge is to wire an inverter into a MCB in the existing consumer unit, but that has all sorts of problems)Edited by Gareth79 on Wednesday 7th September 21:10
Is there no real change needed at the meter end then - my supplier could accept power generated at home without any modifications here?
I assume the issue is that the supplier will want to ensure that any installation that could put power back into the grid is done properly. That I can understand.
gov.uk says:
gov.uk said:
Step 1: Installer should be appropriately registered
Energy device owners should commission an installation contractor, discuss the proposed installation and purchase the energy device.
Competent installation contractors can be found through certification schemes that signal quality of installation contractor and support them throughout registration.
Installation contractors can:
1. register with a competent persons scheme. In most circumstances, this allows installation contractors to self-certify that your work complies with building regulations. If not registered, installation contractors must go directly to the Local Authority Building Control and pay to submit a building notice before the commencement of the installation work. In Scotland, installation contractors must go to the Local Authority Building Standards service and check if a building warrant is for the installation before starting the work
2. become certified through a certification body that signals quality of installation contractor and supports you throughout registration
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/register-energy-devices-in-homes-or-small-businesses-guidance-for-device-owners-and-installation-contractors/register-energy-devices-in-homes-or-small-businesses-guidance-for-device-owners-and-installation-contractorsEnergy device owners should commission an installation contractor, discuss the proposed installation and purchase the energy device.
Competent installation contractors can be found through certification schemes that signal quality of installation contractor and support them throughout registration.
Installation contractors can:
1. register with a competent persons scheme. In most circumstances, this allows installation contractors to self-certify that your work complies with building regulations. If not registered, installation contractors must go directly to the Local Authority Building Control and pay to submit a building notice before the commencement of the installation work. In Scotland, installation contractors must go to the Local Authority Building Standards service and check if a building warrant is for the installation before starting the work
2. become certified through a certification body that signals quality of installation contractor and supports you throughout registration
Does this mean an electrician could go via a local building control route if not "MCS"?
In terms of scheme this is a reference to the selling electricity back to grid? SO in theory you could get an installation approved but may not be able to sell the power back to the grid, even though the install would be approved/safe. Hmm. Seems a shame if the install can still be done correctly under BC and safely.
Can you explain how the house uses the inverter power and not the grid? In terms of selecting battery over grid this is something that has to be programmed? Is this the case with PV too - a case of programming the inverter to push out a certain amount? I'm being dim - if the inverter is pushing out 240V AC and the henley is also taking 240V AC from the grid - how is the consumer unit only taking the inverter power and nothing from the grid?
Edited by TDK-C60 on Wednesday 7th September 22:17
Yes lots of other inverters but the context was micro inverters
Enphase require additional hardware and training completeion before a system comes online
Off grid is straightforward for a competent person but you have to watch the Volts and amps!
On grid more involved and you have to get it G98/99
Enphase require additional hardware and training completeion before a system comes online
Off grid is straightforward for a competent person but you have to watch the Volts and amps!
On grid more involved and you have to get it G98/99
TDK-C60 said:
How have Enphase shut down the DIY market? They aren’t the only inverter?
There seem to be 550W panels on ebay and inverters - are these junk?
Feels like a bit of a minefield.
If you don’t sell back to the grid, can a solar battery install be quite simple for an average electrician? Is retrospective MCS possible?
Seems frustratingly hard to do something actually quite simple. Hardest bit seems to be working at height on the roof hence needing to het scaffolding etc.
Is there a good explanation as to how this actually fits to your meter/consumer unit?
There seem to be 550W panels on ebay and inverters - are these junk?
Feels like a bit of a minefield.
If you don’t sell back to the grid, can a solar battery install be quite simple for an average electrician? Is retrospective MCS possible?
Seems frustratingly hard to do something actually quite simple. Hardest bit seems to be working at height on the roof hence needing to het scaffolding etc.
Is there a good explanation as to how this actually fits to your meter/consumer unit?
TDK-C60 said:
Can you explain how the house uses the inverter power and not the grid? In terms of selecting battery over grid this is something that has to be programmed? Is this the case with PV too - a case of programming the inverter to push out a certain amount? I'm being dim - if the inverter is pushing out 240V AC and the henley is also taking 240V AC from the grid - how is the consumer unit only taking the inverter power and nothing from the grid?
I'd like to know this too! 
PBCD said:
TDK-C60 said:
Can you explain how the house uses the inverter power and not the grid? In terms of selecting battery over grid this is something that has to be programmed? Is this the case with PV too - a case of programming the inverter to push out a certain amount? I'm being dim - if the inverter is pushing out 240V AC and the henley is also taking 240V AC from the grid - how is the consumer unit only taking the inverter power and nothing from the grid?
I'd like to know this too! Let's say the grid is 0.1 ohm. You draw 10A from it, the voltage at your meter drops by a volt.
The inverter pushes 10A towards the grid, the voltage at your meter rises by a volt.
The currents balance. Whatever your home loads are drawing will come from your inverter first, if the inverter is producing a surplus, it goes to the grid.
If there is a shortfall it comes from the grid.
The inverter takes power from the panels, say they are producing 4kW. It converts that to slightly over grid voltage, the current flows to drag the voltage down until it balances. If the grid or loads tries to take more, the voltage drops because the power is constrained. If less current is drawn, the volts rise until current flows out into the grid.
It's actually quite hard for someone who's done circuit theory for 40 years to understand why other people don't get this.
I'm not a natural teacher, sorry! :-)
(might have been cleaer before a couple of glasses of plonk).
Annoyingly, my "recommended" solar panel company have gone awol after coming round to quote last week.
They did a nice job on our neighbours, but have gone totally awol on me.
Can anyone recommend another company they've had a good experience of that would service farnborough, hants please. Lots of ads for cheap installs around, but I value quality on the job, so a personal experience you've had would be appreciated.
They did a nice job on our neighbours, but have gone totally awol on me.
Can anyone recommend another company they've had a good experience of that would service farnborough, hants please. Lots of ads for cheap installs around, but I value quality on the job, so a personal experience you've had would be appreciated.
Arnold Cunningham said:
Annoyingly, my "recommended" solar panel company have gone awol after coming round to quote last week.
They did a nice job on our neighbours, but have gone totally awol on me.
Can anyone recommend another company they've had a good experience of that would service farnborough, hants please. Lots of ads for cheap installs around, but I value quality on the job, so a personal experience you've had would be appreciated.
I had So Energy Solar fit my system in July, (my energy supplier) very happy with the fit & service.They did a nice job on our neighbours, but have gone totally awol on me.
Can anyone recommend another company they've had a good experience of that would service farnborough, hants please. Lots of ads for cheap installs around, but I value quality on the job, so a personal experience you've had would be appreciated.
C Lee Farquar said:
Is it that embarrassing to want some solar panels? Surely they must be socially acceptable by now?
More that I didn’t want to out myself as a flash b@stard with a swimming pool and socially unacceptable 27,000 kWh usage.Also the embarrassment of getting myself into a situation where my fixed price combined annual energy quote was £48k a couple of weeks ago…
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