New build deviating from plans…

[blueg33]

Elysium said:

blueg33 said:

I would be looking to exit from contract. It looks like material differences in size. Op, don’t accept the stock phrase “it’s within tolerance”

Maybe, but its worth getting some evidence first.

Getting a surveyor in would make sense, but be more cost for the OP. Thats why I suggested that he meet a manager from the housebuilder on site and jointly check dimensions.

That would very quickly deal with a number of questions:

1. What does the contact actually say the dims should be?
2. If they are wrong, what has happened and how substantial is it?

Doing this together could be the quickest way to a solution or a hassle free cancellation of the contract with deposit returned.

Good strategy - but I would look to get the contracts manager and sales manager rather than the site manager

[blueg33]

Zarco said:

A car is built by machines in a factory environment. There will inevitably be finer tolerances and less issues.

Yup a house is built by humans in a wet muddy field in UK weather. A car is built in a controlled environment by robots.

The houses we build are a hybrid. The house itself is built in a factory, partly by robots partly by humans. Sadly the site stuff is still done by humans. As a result we have fewer quality issues with the houses as they are fitted out in the factory, but many delay issues on site.

[Promised Land]

Zarco said:

A car is built by machines in a factory environment. There will inevitably be finer tolerances and less issues.

Exactly, a car is engineered, using steel, plastic etc.

Houses are made by hand with living breathing materials like timber that expand,contract, hundreds of litres of water in the build (walls) and finishing with plaster.

OP wants to continue and I don’t blame him, it’s the plot they’ve gone for and emotionally and financially are in too deep to pull out anyway with legal fees and the rest of it.

It will be resolved before they move in, it’s the stress I guess it’s taking on them in the meantime as a house move should be a good time in your life not full of headaches and complaining.

Personally I’ve seen a lot worse on site,eg someone moved in and on the day they did non of the kitchen appliances were connected, (water or electric) how the finishing foreman and site agent over looked that one I am not sure.

National house builder as well.

[_-XXXX-_]

Toaster Pilot said:

I get those saying they’d be pulling out but it’s easier said than done - the legal fight to actually do so on one hand and the impending homelessness/committing to another year at least of exorbitant rent / expiring mortgage offer / etc on the other.

I need to fully understand what the problem is and how far it goes, that’s clearly the next step.

Exactly. It's easy for others to say. It looks like a nice house from the shots you've posted. Hopefully the room sizes are correct, the stairs being too large sounds unlikely to me but you never know. Hard to judge by your pictures but the stairs/door/whatever looks out somewhere by around 50-100mm. Anyway, good luck with it all & hopefully it will become a distant memory when you are moved in

[C Lee Farquar]

Zarco said:

A car is built by machines in a factory environment. There will inevitably be finer tolerances and less issues.

I note you don't have a Defender listed in 'my garage'

[Mr Whippy]

blueg33 said:

Zarco said:

A car is built by machines in a factory environment. There will inevitably be finer tolerances and less issues.

Yup a house is built by humans in a wet muddy field in UK weather. A car is built in a controlled environment by robots.

The houses we build are a hybrid. The house itself is built in a factory, partly by robots partly by humans. Sadly the site stuff is still done by humans. As a result we have fewer quality issues with the houses as they are fitted out in the factory, but many delay issues on site.

Come on.

I’ve helped on several barn conversions and they’re down to a few millimetres.

Foundations will be flat and level and to spec within millimetres. Block work off that the same.
Anyone in this work should know how accuracy errors can accumulate so will mark out accordingly.

Any further intolerance is due to complete ignorance/incompetence, or plain stty working practices.


“They’re” being enabled to not care by the hierarchy.


Yes it’s hard to keep an eye on it all, yes mistakes are made, but you correct for them properly.
If you don’t, that stairwell is where you end up, and then it’s another bodge.

What if another issue now becomes apparent because of this tolerance issue?
Is something else in a few weeks going to not fit properly, like a run of cupboards in the kitchen? Or a cut granite worktop?


It’s inexcusable. It’s laughable seeing people make excuses for not using a tape measure.

It’s only done and seen as ok because they keep getting away with it.

Yet the margins on these houses are probably massive. Yet they have the lowest sts given.

[PianoManYork]

_-XXXX-_ said:

Toaster Pilot said:

I get those saying they’d be pulling out but it’s easier said than done - the legal fight to actually do so on one hand and the impending homelessness/committing to another year at least of exorbitant rent / expiring mortgage offer / etc on the other.

I need to fully understand what the problem is and how far it goes, that’s clearly the next step.

Exactly. It's easy for others to say. It looks like a nice house from the shots you've posted. Hopefully the room sizes are correct, the stairs being too large sounds unlikely to me but you never know. Hard to judge by your pictures but the stairs/door/whatever looks out somewhere by around 50-100mm. Anyway, good luck with it all & hopefully it will become a distant memory when you are moved in

I think the issue for those of us saying ‘try to get out of the purchase’ is that who knows what else has been done wrong.

[Toaster Pilot]

Mr Whippy said:

going to not fit properly, like a run of cupboards in the kitchen?

Funny* you should say that…

Toaster Pilot said:

I’ll definitely require more convincing that it’s just cosmetic - there’s an issue in another room on the ground floor that also suggests things are a bit tighter than they should be, struggling to believe they’re unrelated.

[Elysium]

blueg33 said:

Elysium said:

blueg33 said:

I would be looking to exit from contract. It looks like material differences in size. Op, don’t accept the stock phrase “it’s within tolerance”

Maybe, but its worth getting some evidence first.

Getting a surveyor in would make sense, but be more cost for the OP. Thats why I suggested that he meet a manager from the housebuilder on site and jointly check dimensions.

That would very quickly deal with a number of questions:

1. What does the contact actually say the dims should be?
2. If they are wrong, what has happened and how substantial is it?

Doing this together could be the quickest way to a solution or a hassle free cancellation of the contract with deposit returned.

Good strategy - but I would look to get the contracts manager and sales manager rather than the site manager

Definitely, you want someone who is not going to be immediately defensive about whatever is wrong.

[Flooble]

Toaster Pilot said:

Mr Whippy said:

going to not fit properly, like a run of cupboards in the kitchen?

Funny* you should say that…

Toaster Pilot said:

I’ll definitely require more convincing that it’s just cosmetic - there’s an issue in another room on the ground floor that also suggests things are a bit tighter than they should be, struggling to believe they’re unrelated.

It feels more and more like my cynical "they've built the house too small" is probably accurate. My condolences.

[OutInTheShed]

Mr Whippy said:

Come on.

I’ve helped on several barn conversions and they’re down to a few millimetres.

Foundations will be flat and level and to spec within millimetres. Block work off that the same.
Anyone in this work should know how accuracy errors can accumulate so will mark out accordingly.

Any further intolerance is due to complete ignorance/incompetence, or plain stty working practices.


“They’re” being enabled to not care by the hierarchy.


Yes it’s hard to keep an eye on it all, yes mistakes are made, but you correct for them properly.
If you don’t, that stairwell is where you end up, and then it’s another bodge.

What if another issue now becomes apparent because of this tolerance issue?
Is something else in a few weeks going to not fit properly, like a run of cupboards in the kitchen? Or a cut granite worktop?


It’s inexcusable. It’s laughable seeing people make excuses for not using a tape measure.

It’s only done and seen as ok because they keep getting away with it.

Yet the margins on these houses are probably massive. Yet they have the lowest sts given.

I agree, but it might help to be clear about what constitutes a 'mistake' and what is a 'tolerance' and what's an 'error'.

A dimension is supposed to be 2 metres.
That will have a tolerance say +/- 10mm
If you make it 1.98m, that's out of tolerance

If you make it 1.8m, that's a mistake, or a deliberate non-conformance.

At some point, a line is crossed from 'slightly out of spec' to 'plain wrong'.

[blueg33]

Mr Whippy said:

blueg33 said:

Zarco said:

A car is built by machines in a factory environment. There will inevitably be finer tolerances and less issues.

Yup a house is built by humans in a wet muddy field in UK weather. A car is built in a controlled environment by robots.

The houses we build are a hybrid. The house itself is built in a factory, partly by robots partly by humans. Sadly the site stuff is still done by humans. As a result we have fewer quality issues with the houses as they are fitted out in the factory, but many delay issues on site.

Come on.

I’ve helped on several barn conversions and they’re down to a few millimetres.

Foundations will be flat and level and to spec within millimetres. Block work off that the same.
Anyone in this work should know how accuracy errors can accumulate so will mark out accordingly.

Any further intolerance is due to complete ignorance/incompetence, or plain stty working practices.


“They’re” being enabled to not care by the hierarchy.


Yes it’s hard to keep an eye on it all, yes mistakes are made, but you correct for them properly.
If you don’t, that stairwell is where you end up, and then it’s another bodge.

What if another issue now becomes apparent because of this tolerance issue?
Is something else in a few weeks going to not fit properly, like a run of cupboards in the kitchen? Or a cut granite worktop?


It’s inexcusable. It’s laughable seeing people make excuses for not using a tape measure.

It’s only done and seen as ok because they keep getting away with it.

Yet the margins on these houses are probably massive. Yet they have the lowest sts given.

I didn't say foundations are out of tolerance because they are built outside - I said we get delays as a result of being built outside

However, if you think that mistakes won't happen, you are a fantasist. Comparing a few barn conversions to 1000's of houses is an unrealistic and irrelevant comparison.

Of course people know how errors multiply and plenty of checking goes on, but if a site manager misses something or doesn't follow procedure then issues can occur.

The hierarchy definitely doesn't enable such behaviour. its way more expensive to fix a problem than it is to prevent it happening. people here keep telling me how profit driven housebuilders are - and yes we are profit driven, we are a business with shareholders who expect a return, so guess what? We don't enable errors because it reduces profit.

On a personal note, as the MD of a house builder I do not want to have to be speaking to disgruntled purchasers, the NHBC, or journalists - so why would you think that I would enable practices that make that more likely?

[andy43]

andburg said:

andy43 said:

Ouch. I follow exacthomesurveys on instagram - they’re one of the companies that go out and professionally snag new builds for a few hundred quid. Shouldn’t be necessary but from what I’ve viewed on there I’d highly recommend getting a pro snagger in. Well worth the money.

I don't think there is any real need for this, they'll pick up a million things of which only 10% you'll care about and the builder might push back harder because you've drop an enormous list on them, most of which being trivial.

There are always big snags that need sorting, small snags to discuss and snags you really don't care about.

From my own experience;

Big - Pipe burst prior to handover and all the grout in the kitchen floor tiles discolored.
Small - damaged window sill
who cares - poor paint finish on a couple of walls were going to paint anyway

You'd hope to have no big snags but that if there were any the builder would sort them without disagreement, in my case they had a professional company come in and stain all the grout from the utility room, through the kitchen and all the way down the hall to the front door as it was a single run of flooring. I had it in writing that should the finish not last 2 years they would have somebody come back to rectify. 9 years later its still the same colour.
Everybody i spoke to said it needed completely raking out and redoing but i trusted the builder because they owned their mistakes.

You were lucky - you haven't watched the instagram videos have you? Plastering done with a knife and fork, missing wall plate straps, missing wallplates (!), an endless number of extractors extracting into cavities, cracked flags and tiles, fencing done by Stevie Wonder, no screws on downpipe clips, missing firestops and roof structural timbers, missing gutters, various bits smashed bodged or missing, it's a long list of total lack of anybody giving a st. Most expensive item you'll ever buy...

[leef44]

Flooble said:

Toaster Pilot said:

Mr Whippy said:

going to not fit properly, like a run of cupboards in the kitchen?

Funny* you should say that…

Toaster Pilot said:

I’ll definitely require more convincing that it’s just cosmetic - there’s an issue in another room on the ground floor that also suggests things are a bit tighter than they should be, struggling to believe they’re unrelated.

It feels more and more like my cynical "they've built the house too small" is probably accurate. My condolences.

Does the plot sit on the end of the road or on a corner? Did they run out of space and had to make your house slightly smaller to fit in?

[blueg33]

leef44 said:

Flooble said:

Toaster Pilot said:

Mr Whippy said:

going to not fit properly, like a run of cupboards in the kitchen?

Funny* you should say that…

Toaster Pilot said:

I’ll definitely require more convincing that it’s just cosmetic - there’s an issue in another room on the ground floor that also suggests things are a bit tighter than they should be, struggling to believe they’re unrelated.

It feels more and more like my cynical "they've built the house too small" is probably accurate. My condolences.

Does the plot sit on the end of the road or on a corner? Did they run out of space and had to make your house slightly smaller to fit in?

In 30 odd years in the business I have never seen anything like that

[OutInTheShed]

andy43 said:

You were lucky - you haven't watched the instagram videos have you? Plastering done with a knife and fork, missing wall plate straps, missing wallplates (!), an endless number of extractors extracting into cavities, cracked flags and tiles, fencing done by Stevie Wonder, no screws on downpipe clips, missing firestops and roof structural timbers, missing gutters, various bits smashed bodged or missing, it's a long list of total lack of anybody giving a st. Most expensive item you'll ever buy...

There was a bloke on one of the yachting forums, had a new build up North somewhere, after a while it became apparent the downstairs bog wasn't actually connected to the sewer.

On the same forum, there were some people who'd paid big money for townhouses on a 'marina development' where the driveways and garages had been 'squoze' so you needed a 9 point turn and millimetre accuracy to get a 3 series in.

Personally, I know someone whose year old house costs more to heat than mine. How can that be when it's 2/3 the size, if all the insulation is actually present and correct? And that's against my house being 20 years old and badly built.

A few beers with people who actually do 'trades' work on site can be quite illuminating.

[Tango13]

Mr Whippy said:

blueg33 said:

Zarco said:

A car is built by machines in a factory environment. There will inevitably be finer tolerances and less issues.

Yup a house is built by humans in a wet muddy field in UK weather. A car is built in a controlled environment by robots.

The houses we build are a hybrid. The house itself is built in a factory, partly by robots partly by humans. Sadly the site stuff is still done by humans. As a result we have fewer quality issues with the houses as they are fitted out in the factory, but many delay issues on site.

Come on.

I’ve helped on several barn conversions and they’re down to a few millimetres.

Foundations will be flat and level and to spec within millimetres. Block work off that the same.
Anyone in this work should know how accuracy errors can accumulate so will mark out accordingly.

Any further intolerance is due to complete ignorance/incompetence, or plain stty working practices.


“They’re” being enabled to not care by the hierarchy.


Yes it’s hard to keep an eye on it all, yes mistakes are made, but you correct for them properly.
If you don’t, that stairwell is where you end up, and then it’s another bodge.

What if another issue now becomes apparent because of this tolerance issue?
Is something else in a few weeks going to not fit properly, like a run of cupboards in the kitchen? Or a cut granite worktop?


It’s inexcusable. It’s laughable seeing people make excuses for not using a tape measure.

It’s only done and seen as ok because they keep getting away with it.

Yet the margins on these houses are probably massive. Yet they have the lowest sts given.

I'm with Mr Whippy on this, my late grandfather did his apprenticeship as a brick layer and was so good he did a second apprenticeship as a civil engineer. One of the last jobs he did was two parallel walls for the front steps at my parents house, when he finished he measured them and said it was time to quit as the walls were out by 1/16" or 1.6mm in new money.

These builders obviously have zero pride in their work and the management are no better

[Zarco]

Tango13 said:

Mr Whippy said:

blueg33 said:

Zarco said:

A car is built by machines in a factory environment. There will inevitably be finer tolerances and less issues.

Yup a house is built by humans in a wet muddy field in UK weather. A car is built in a controlled environment by robots.

The houses we build are a hybrid. The house itself is built in a factory, partly by robots partly by humans. Sadly the site stuff is still done by humans. As a result we have fewer quality issues with the houses as they are fitted out in the factory, but many delay issues on site.

Come on.

I’ve helped on several barn conversions and they’re down to a few millimetres.

Foundations will be flat and level and to spec within millimetres. Block work off that the same.
Anyone in this work should know how accuracy errors can accumulate so will mark out accordingly.

Any further intolerance is due to complete ignorance/incompetence, or plain stty working practices.


“They’re” being enabled to not care by the hierarchy.


Yes it’s hard to keep an eye on it all, yes mistakes are made, but you correct for them properly.
If you don’t, that stairwell is where you end up, and then it’s another bodge.

What if another issue now becomes apparent because of this tolerance issue?
Is something else in a few weeks going to not fit properly, like a run of cupboards in the kitchen? Or a cut granite worktop?


It’s inexcusable. It’s laughable seeing people make excuses for not using a tape measure.

It’s only done and seen as ok because they keep getting away with it.

Yet the margins on these houses are probably massive. Yet they have the lowest sts given.

I'm with Mr Whippy on this, my late grandfather did his apprenticeship as a brick layer and was so good he did a second apprenticeship as a civil engineer. One of the last jobs he did was two parallel walls for the front steps at my parents house, when he finished he measured them and said it was time to quit as the walls were out by 1/16" or 1.6mm in new money.

These builders obviously have zero pride in their work and the management are no better

FWIW I was responding to the comment that some people will reject new cars for lesser defects. This is not a fair comparison as only one is built in factory conditions.

I was not excusing the issue we have in this thread where the stairs clash with the door frame.

As I've previously said; robotic brick layers can't come soon enough.

[andy43]

Tango13 said:

These builders obviously have zero pride in their work and the management are no better

Pick two of the three - quality, speed and cost. You can’t have all three. Housebuilders go for cost and speed almost every time.

[Tango13]

andy43 said:

Tango13 said:

These builders obviously have zero pride in their work and the management are no better

Pick two of the three - quality, speed and cost. You can’t have all three. Housebuilders go for cost and speed almost every time.

When I was building an engine for my bike a few years back my brother said something similar, powerful, reliable, cheap, pick any two...