Trades daily rates

[037]

We are living in an age where men simply don't own tools (or the knowledge) and have to call on the trades to do the simplest of tasks. Only going to get more expensive.
I could run a business just from the requests for tradesmen on my local FB Nexdoor site alone.
Many people still don't see any of the trades as a 'Professional' career.

[beanoir78]

BlindedByTheLights said:

sc0tt said:

MOBB said:

Recently had a quote for decorating, £8k for 10 days work

Northants

£800 a day for a painter

Kent, my painter is charging me £220ish a day.

Big rooms £650, smaller rooms £450.

Which is £50k a year for painting!

£800 per day is a lot more than a salary of £50k per year…

[037]

On the £8k quote, did the decorator suggest he would work alone for 10 days to complete the job? Any materials or scaffolding included?

[BlindedByTheLights]

beanoir78 said:

BlindedByTheLights said:

sc0tt said:

MOBB said:

Recently had a quote for decorating, £8k for 10 days work

Northants

£800 a day for a painter

Kent, my painter is charging me £220ish a day.

Big rooms £650, smaller rooms £450.

Which is £50k a year for painting!

£800 per day is a lot more than a salary of £50k per year…

£220 is £50k, £800 is £180k

[turbospud]

LuckyThirteen said:

Awful lot of what is coming across like bitter jealousy towards trades earnings.

I don't get it.

At 300/day, factoring in one days cancellation at late notice per three weeks..

Then potential 2 weeks no work over Christmas. Then allow for 2 or 3 sick days in a year (public won't thank you for turning up into their house with flue or a cold)...

Then a week holiday with the family.

Then take off another week for bank holidays that you're not working (let's assume he does three).

That's four to five weeks not worked. So 47.5 available.

That's circa £66k

Take off vehicle running costs. Insurance, the cost of tools and that's probably down to £60k

And that's this guy working solidly. I've not been generous above. It's more than possible there'll be far more days wasted. Jobs run over, mistakes happen.

Moreover the premium needs to be there for the added risk of downturns leaving the diary empty.

Ultimately, if you don't want to pay a trade then do it yourself.

The other angle on this is that for thirty odd years parents told their kids getting into trades was crappy. The social stigma in the 80's/90's and noughties around being ' a tradesperson' has resulted in a shortage now.

Where there's shortages, prices rise.

this,should have stuck in at school and been a plumber

[anonymous-user]

I've been having a bit of panelling/picture rails/coving etc installed, and decoration done in a few rooms over the last few months, and the painter/decorator I use is £200 a day and the joiner is £180 per day. Both of them really very good and I'm happy with the quality and speed of their work. They both really crack on and do an excellent job.

The joiner is a younger guy of about 25 years old, which explains his lower rate, but he's absolutely brilliant and when I was building my house he did loads of the woodwork, hung the doors, did all the skirting and door frames, builds ceiling boxes, panelling, and so on.

They both have a waiting list of around 2-3 months.

As has been pointed out, at £200 a day, the self employed painter who realistically works around 220 days per year, will earn about £44k a year, and out of that has to pay for his shiny new Transit Sport, put fuel in it, insure himself, and buy whatever brushes and tools he needs.

I have absolutely zero issue with a highly skilled decorator taking home about £40k a year before tax, and I think it is entirely reasonable for him to charge £200 a day given he spends his days physically working, bending, crouching, leaning, climbing ladders, erecting tower scaffold, and so on.

[croyde]

£20 an hour isn't too much for a skill, I don't think.

As a freelance cameraman I used to get £40 to £45, usually a 10 hour day and rarely would work as hard as I did when I laboured for a builder mate of mine for £50 a day and breakfast. Did this when the TV work was quiet, got me out of the house and taught me a few things.

I'm now staff at a TV station and get £20, not many can do my job but then I do have 35 years of experience to back me up.

Plus sick pay, holiday pay, health insurance and other perks.

If I could work 5/6 days a week freelance I'd be far better off but the reality these days is 2/3 days a week.

So I'd be alright as a painter on 5 days a week

[monkfish1]

037 said:

We are living in an age where men simply don't own tools (or the knowledge) and have to call on the trades to do the simplest of tasks. Only going to get more expensive.
I could run a business just from the requests for tradesmen on my local FB Nexdoor site alone.
Many people still don't see any of the trades as a 'Professional' career.

I dont think we ever have valued trades in this country.

But it got much worse when Tony Blair decided everone should go to university. The message being anyone that didnt was a failure.

And here we are. Lack of trades people.

Not going to get better either.

You reap what you sow.

Anyone with practical skills now is never going to be short of work.

[Mr Whippy]

DIY.

[Mr Whippy]

037 said:

We are living in an age where men simply don't own tools (or the knowledge) and have to call on the trades to do the simplest of tasks. Only going to get more expensive.
I could run a business just from the requests for tradesmen on my local FB Nexdoor site alone.
Many people still don't see any of the trades as a 'Professional' career.

To be fair for a lot of stuff it’s not professional is it?

Being conscientious and then experience are probably all you need for a lot of trades.

Many of the good trades who have now retired probably gained this through apprenticeships and wanting to actually do these trades when they were you adults.

Professional usually means formally qualified doesn’t it?

Ie, engineers, doctors, scientists, solicitors etc, none of which can be learned ‘on the job’

[VeeReihenmotor6]

Yes the daily rates sound high on the face of it but these guys are not 100% booked throughout the year.

£300 / day assume 6 weeks off for holidays and bank holidays and 80% utilisation for the rest of the year only equates to c£55k gross per annum. Out of that they need to take some money off for sick pay provision, a pension, tools, a van, licencing fees (corgi) etc. Then they need to pay tax.

It's not a lot of money in todays world and most professional office workers have a far better package, even in middling positions i.e 10% employer pension contribution, sick pay/cover, death in service payments, share options, paid leave, car allowance, work from home, 100% pay throughout the year.

That said i still DIY as much as can.

[monkfish1]

Mr Whippy said:

037 said:

We are living in an age where men simply don't own tools (or the knowledge) and have to call on the trades to do the simplest of tasks. Only going to get more expensive.
I could run a business just from the requests for tradesmen on my local FB Nexdoor site alone.
Many people still don't see any of the trades as a 'Professional' career.

To be fair for a lot of stuff it’s not professional is it?

Being conscientious and then experience are probably all you need for a lot of trades.

Many of the good trades who have now retired probably gained this through apprenticeships and wanting to actually do these trades when they were you adults.

Professional usually means formally qualified doesn’t it?

Ie, engineers, doctors, scientists, solicitors etc, none of which can be learned ‘on the job’

I think you may want to aquaint yourself with the definition of the term professional. Google works well as starter.

[Matt p]

monkfish1 said:

I dont think we ever have valued trades in this country.

But it got much worse when Tony Blair decided everone should go to university. The message being anyone that didnt was a failure.

And here we are. Lack of trades people.

Not going to get better either.

You reap what you sow.

Anyone with practical skills now is never going to be short of work.

100% this.

Massive shortage in people coming through in any trade. Good luck getting a decent heat pump tech anytime soon. The HVAC industry has been woefully lacking for years. The guy who taught me back in 2005 said one thing to me that really stuck. His words were “people in the world will always need to keep things hot or keep things cold, you’ll never be out of work if you choose either”. As you can imagine I owe him a great deal, even more so now while working in Grand Cayman.

[anonymous-user]

037 said:

We are living in an age where men simply don't own tools (or the knowledge) and have to call on the trades to do the simplest of tasks. Only going to get more expensive.
<snip>

I'm fairly confident that I am one of those people.

I own a selection of decent screwdrivers, Allen key set, couple of adjustable spanners, pliers, a hammer, a cordless drill, and that is literally about it. I can hang pictures and put up a curtain pole, but honestly, that really is it. I'm rubbish at DIY, have no interest in getting better, and I learned many years ago there is absolutely no point in having a garage full of tools if I can't use them with a modicum of competency. So I just don't bother. No point in spending the money or cluttering my garage.

In the past, even when I have done things like put up a curtain pole, it has sometimes fallen down a 12 months later because I didn't use exactly the right fixing, or because it was a plasterboard wall, or because I didn't drill into the lintel properly, whatever, etc, etc.

I would much, much, rather pay someone who was an expert in these things, and had all the right tools, all the right fixings, all the right knowledge, and so on, and at least I know it has been done properly. I have zero issue paying the going rate for decent tradesmen to come round and do all this for me. I enjoy not having to do the jobs myself. It saves me time and frustration.

I saved up a few simple jobs for an electrician recently. Changing a couple of light fittings, fitting a digital timer to a dual-fuel towel rail, and swapping all the all the sockets and switches in my hallway to a different colour. He charged me £100 and had it all done before lunchtime. I cannot put into words how much value I see in spending a paltry £100 to have all these things done perfectly without me having to get my hands dirty.

For decades, the essential thing for a 'dad' has been to have a garage full of tools, yet be crap at DIY, make a botch of stuff, get moaned at by your wife, and spend your free time getting very angry that the DIY you have attempted hasn't gone as perfectly as you expected. Why bother? Why put yourself through it?

(My brother is even worse than me. He owns a screwdriver set and that is it. He never does any DIY at all)

Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 27th March 12:54

[Flooble]

monkfish1 said:

I think you may want to aquaint yourself with the definition of the term professional. Google works well as starter.

As I used to understand it, "professional" meant you had qualified according to rules set out by your professional body, which was independent and distinct from the government but had legal powers to prevent someone unqualified from calling themselves e.g. a solicitor and could also bar members who failed to perform adequately.

However, that definition is a bit fungible as it meant that e.g. teachers were not professionals since their qualification was granted by the government not by the NUT.

So I'm not sure there is a single definition that can be applied.


As for £100 to get some electrical work done being "worth it" - I quite agree. However, if that was instead £1000 then attitudes might shift.

[Sheepshanks]

croyde said:

How much would you expect to get painted for £300?

Me, doing my own place, I would take maybe 2 days for a small lounge or big bedroom.

Clean walls and woodwork, sort any small holes. Two coats on walls minimum, same for ceiling.

Hope the weather/room is warm enough to dry the first coat giving you time to apply the second.

But that usually takes me to far later than the usual guy would stay. He needs to be in the pub by 5pm

Next day for the woodwork. Sand old paint, primer/undercoat then gloss. Then it might need a second coat.

Anyway of doing it quicker without affecting the quality?

Genuine question

Sounds like you already have a far higher quality mindset than most pros.

The decorating firm our builder used was very neat - their cutting in is spot on - but they basically just painted everything as they found it. They only really worked 5hr days too.

I suppose you'd have to give up the day job, but I imagine if you put an ad in the local Facebook or whatever you'd be innundated.

[croyde]

I have a big cupboard full of tools in my flat, more in my rented garage and even more in my shed back at the ex marital home

Bloody nightmare as I keep having to move from rented flat to rented flat but I need storage, something that's not offered with anything modern, well insulated and energy efficient.

Modern housing just doesn't seem to realise that people accrue stuff, useful and otherwise

I've worked on my on bikes, cars and houses eversince I was a yoof back in the 70s.

Non of this has rubbed off on my kids though.

One threw out a hoover because their dog had chewed off the plug.

Seemed oblivious to the idea of just fitting a new one.

NB Yes, I'm sure there's some rule nowadays saying that only a professional can fit a plug.

In fact, can you actually buy a 13amp plug in B&Q these days. Luckily I have loads of them in my shed

Edited by croyde on Monday 27th March 13:08

[Sheepshanks]

Lord Marylebone said:

I saved up a few simple jobs for an electrician recently. Changing a couple of light fittings, fitting a digital timer to a dual-fuel towel rail, and swapping all the all the sockets and switches in my hallway to a different colour. He charged me £100 and had it all done before lunchtime. I cannot put into words how much value I see in spending a paltry £100 to have all these things done perfectly without me having to get my hands dirty.

I think most people would do that. The issue is getting hold of a tradesman in the first place, getting a quote and them wanting £700 to do that work. And then they don't turn up.

If you know someone well enough that you can just ask without querying the price and trust that it'll be reasonable, then that's ideal.

[Olivera]

Sheepshanks said:

The decorating firm our builder used was very neat - their cutting in is spot on - but they basically just painted everything as they found it. They only really worked 5hr days too.

Yup, in my experience most decorators (and probably all trades) are finishing most days by 3-4pm, then calling it quits by early afternoon on a Friday.

[anonymous-user]

Flooble said:

<snip>

As for £100 to get some electrical work done being "worth it" - I quite agree. However, if that was instead £1000 then attitudes might shift.

True, but if it was £1000 for 3 hours work rather than £100, there wouldn't be much of anything happening. Almost no one would hire an electrician. Even if trades get even more expensive, which I think they will, they must still remain something resembling affordable to the average person otherwise things will just grind to a halt.

I'm happy to spend £1000-1200 a week having a decorator in my house as I see the value. But if he turned round and said £5000 a week, my house would remain undecorated, and so would most other peoples I suspect.

Sheepshanks said:

Lord Marylebone said:

I saved up a few simple jobs for an electrician recently. Changing a couple of light fittings, fitting a digital timer to a dual-fuel towel rail, and swapping all the all the sockets and switches in my hallway to a different colour. He charged me £100 and had it all done before lunchtime. I cannot put into words how much value I see in spending a paltry £100 to have all these things done perfectly without me having to get my hands dirty.

I think most people would do that. The issue is getting hold of a tradesman in the first place, getting a quote and them wanting £700 to do that work. And then they don't turn up.

If you know someone well enough that you can just ask without querying the price and trust that it'll be reasonable, then that's ideal.

Indeed. I have a small pool of tradesmen who I use reasonably regularly when I need things doing. They know me, and clearly they must feel I'm OK to work for.

I politely inform them what needs doing.
I never haggle or question the quote.
I leave it up to them as to when to do it, and how to do it, and what materials to use.
I never interfere.
I thank them for their attendance.
When the bill arrives, I pay it immediately, offering cash if that is what floats their boat.

I know from dealing with a lot of trades at work, that they simply avoid anyone who they even slightly suspect will be an annoying customer, and they have so much work that they can cheerfully do this.

Find a tradesmen, pay well, don't be an annoying customer, and in theory, they will happily come back time and time again as they know it's an easy job working for you.

Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 27th March 13:25