"Modern" construction methods - are any of them a good idea?
Discussion
We had a builder round to quote for gutting and re-doing the lounge - ceiling dow, partition wall to be constructed, wall skimmed, etc.
He asked at the time if I would like the walls "spray plastered". No. What's wrong with using a spread?
Just phoned me up as he is typing up the quote, asked if he could build the partition/TV wall using metal framing. Sounds like a really bad idea for a wall that's going to carry a big telly, speakers, and 6 cabinets for the electronics and my model cars. No. What's wrong with timber studwork?
I'm sure they thought, back in the day, that pre-cast concrete sectional construction was a good idea. Most are pretty much unmortgageable these days, unless they are re-skinned.
Timber framed construction seemed like a good idea, but only if built and waterproofed perfectly.
Do any of these "modern" ideas really hold up long term, apart from using plasterboard rather than wooden lath and plaster?
He asked at the time if I would like the walls "spray plastered". No. What's wrong with using a spread?
Just phoned me up as he is typing up the quote, asked if he could build the partition/TV wall using metal framing. Sounds like a really bad idea for a wall that's going to carry a big telly, speakers, and 6 cabinets for the electronics and my model cars. No. What's wrong with timber studwork?
I'm sure they thought, back in the day, that pre-cast concrete sectional construction was a good idea. Most are pretty much unmortgageable these days, unless they are re-skinned.
Timber framed construction seemed like a good idea, but only if built and waterproofed perfectly.
Do any of these "modern" ideas really hold up long term, apart from using plasterboard rather than wooden lath and plaster?
There's a load of nonsense thought, said and believed about older houses being better built.
I've own 1930's which was terrible.
I own a 70's one now which is not quite as terrible.
And owned two newbuilds from 2000's and 1990's, both significantly better built.
Oh and two 60s bungalows, one (I still have) with a metal frame, that's held up the best of them all, been in the family since the late 60s too.
I'd worry more about the builder than their methods!
I've own 1930's which was terrible.
I own a 70's one now which is not quite as terrible.
And owned two newbuilds from 2000's and 1990's, both significantly better built.
Oh and two 60s bungalows, one (I still have) with a metal frame, that's held up the best of them all, been in the family since the late 60s too.
I'd worry more about the builder than their methods!
Evoluzione said:
Why are you not telling us what his answers were?
Do you mean, why did he want to use those methods?The plaster, because he'd bought a machine to do it. Said "it's my new business venture".
Metal framing - "It's quicker and makes less mess".
My thinking - a good plasterer can do pretty much perfect work. He said that sprayed plaster needs a fair bit of sanding down. The metal framing seems to result in rattly walls, and nothing to hang heavy items from. A proper nightmare in my sister's 8 year old house.
I was designing and building factories and offices for English Estates (showing age alert) back in the 1980's and spray plastering by some of our subbies was a thing back then in the office parts. Not sure why it never seemed to catch on in a big way. (probably as dot and dab became more popular with reduced drying and installation time)
Metal studs are mainstream now.
Metal studs are mainstream now.
As others have said metal studs are mainstream and have been for all my time in the industry, since Noah was a boy. In fact I'm surprised the Ark wasn't built with metal studs to be honest.
For what you want to hang on it, unless you had a brick wall you'd have the same problem with a timber stud or breeze block wall, which is the vast majority of housing ever built. Tell the builder you want a layer of ply on the stud, then a layer of plasterboard & you can hang anything on that, anywhere on the wall.
I'd be more wary about his spray applied plaster and tell him you expect the same finish as a traditionally skimmed or dry lined wall and it's on him to get it right.
For what you want to hang on it, unless you had a brick wall you'd have the same problem with a timber stud or breeze block wall, which is the vast majority of housing ever built. Tell the builder you want a layer of ply on the stud, then a layer of plasterboard & you can hang anything on that, anywhere on the wall.
I'd be more wary about his spray applied plaster and tell him you expect the same finish as a traditionally skimmed or dry lined wall and it's on him to get it right.
I take the point that a modern house, built properly, will probably be nicer to live in - warmer, less damp, nice straight lines, etc.
Making changes, or even screwing things to the wall, can be an issue. And how well will a "modern" house hold up long term?
My last house, built in the 1860's from old lumps of granite, mud, and bits of wood pretty much straight from the tree, was structurally sound, if a little damp. My current 1960's bungalow, built from concrete blocks, is mostly still perfect. The bits that are failing are due to previous bodges.
Plenty of examples of "Cornish Unit" kit construction around here, many have been skinned and re-roofed. A few "Woolaway" bungalows get listed for sale, described as "cash only" purchases. A pair of upmarket-looking timber-framed properties where work stopped a couple of years ago - planning issues I think stopped them being finished. Even the one that had the windows and cladding installed is beyond repair now. The unclad one is literally peeling apart.
There was quite a lot of "experimental" construction done in Milton Keynes. After a few years, those developments were a real eyesore. Big houses, but really cheap to buy compared to the more traditional properties a few minutes away.
Making changes, or even screwing things to the wall, can be an issue. And how well will a "modern" house hold up long term?
My last house, built in the 1860's from old lumps of granite, mud, and bits of wood pretty much straight from the tree, was structurally sound, if a little damp. My current 1960's bungalow, built from concrete blocks, is mostly still perfect. The bits that are failing are due to previous bodges.
Plenty of examples of "Cornish Unit" kit construction around here, many have been skinned and re-roofed. A few "Woolaway" bungalows get listed for sale, described as "cash only" purchases. A pair of upmarket-looking timber-framed properties where work stopped a couple of years ago - planning issues I think stopped them being finished. Even the one that had the windows and cladding installed is beyond repair now. The unclad one is literally peeling apart.
There was quite a lot of "experimental" construction done in Milton Keynes. After a few years, those developments were a real eyesore. Big houses, but really cheap to buy compared to the more traditional properties a few minutes away.
There are lots of reasons why large construction companies use metal stud systems, quick, clean, easy to load out, known sustainability credentials etc... the likes of BG and Knauf give good tech back up so you are buying tested and understood systems.
If they are built to the manufacturers standards they will give consistent fire, acoustic and other performance. They are systems so need to be assembled correctly.
Nothing to fear - but as another poster says apply timber in the metal stud behind the plasterboard so you can get easy fixings for things you might want to hang on it.
Spray on plaster is ok, we don’t use it that much but a skilled person can produce a good finish just like they can with tape and joint or skim.
We use lots of modern methods as people is often the constraint on programme speed so productivity becomes key when you have to do things at scale.
ewanjp said:
Metal stud work is pretty strong. Can't imagine it'd have a problem with that usecase. Super easy to do, and everything is perfectly straight.
Problem is, if it ever happened:Damage mode considerations. Fire performance considerations.
Conduction considerations, sound, heat/cold, electricity in the event.
I’m all for such ideas, steel is infinitely recyclable. Then again so is wood.
My issue I suppose is commercial considerations are not aligned with residential owner considerations.
Commercial considerations are aligned with residential builder considerations.
Builders and developers, as we’ve seen, are more than happy to erect and run for the hills after 2 years, leaving insurers to cover any issues.
Yeah a lot of these amazing new things just make later mods/maintenance/renovation more difficult.
My first house, a 50s ex council, had reinforced concrete joists and metal door frames.
The door frame hinges were part of the frame so no easy swap. The door frames appeared to be structural across the top, so even removing to replace was a pita.
Floorboards were pinned to concrete joists when ‘wet’ so impossible to work with in a similar way later.
Near impossible to swap out.
Top layer powdered up a bit and so wasn’t firm.
You had to drill into the sides and attach wooden batons for an easy fix.
A ‘normal’ house was much easier to work with.
Even stuff like sprayed wall paint, great, till you try match into it. Impossible. So you end up having to repaint while rooms.
Fast, cheap, ‘looks’ good, but isn’t actually worth a toss except to sell the house.
My first house, a 50s ex council, had reinforced concrete joists and metal door frames.
The door frame hinges were part of the frame so no easy swap. The door frames appeared to be structural across the top, so even removing to replace was a pita.
Floorboards were pinned to concrete joists when ‘wet’ so impossible to work with in a similar way later.
Near impossible to swap out.
Top layer powdered up a bit and so wasn’t firm.
You had to drill into the sides and attach wooden batons for an easy fix.
A ‘normal’ house was much easier to work with.
Even stuff like sprayed wall paint, great, till you try match into it. Impossible. So you end up having to repaint while rooms.
Fast, cheap, ‘looks’ good, but isn’t actually worth a toss except to sell the house.
Working in the commercial world all non-block/brick wall use metal studs.
The manufacturers have a vast array of standard specifications for acoustic, fire, load bearing capacity, thermal performance etc. etc. so as long as the correct spec is selected you won’t have problems. If your home has them and they are flimsy or rattle it is because they have not been built in accordance with spec. Like a lot of builds!
If additional load bearing capacity is required incorporate additional studs if you know where specific loads are to be applied or a layer of ply for greater flexibility. We have seen problems with using osb that had a high moisture content warping when drying out, twisting the walls out of alignment, so have been a bit wary of this ever since.
Spray plastering? Okay for our colonial cousins - not so popular here in the UK. If you’re very good you get a very good finish. If you are not it will cost a fortune to make good.
The manufacturers have a vast array of standard specifications for acoustic, fire, load bearing capacity, thermal performance etc. etc. so as long as the correct spec is selected you won’t have problems. If your home has them and they are flimsy or rattle it is because they have not been built in accordance with spec. Like a lot of builds!
If additional load bearing capacity is required incorporate additional studs if you know where specific loads are to be applied or a layer of ply for greater flexibility. We have seen problems with using osb that had a high moisture content warping when drying out, twisting the walls out of alignment, so have been a bit wary of this ever since.
Spray plastering? Okay for our colonial cousins - not so popular here in the UK. If you’re very good you get a very good finish. If you are not it will cost a fortune to make good.
Mr Whippy said:
ewanjp said:
Metal stud work is pretty strong. Can't imagine it'd have a problem with that usecase. Super easy to do, and everything is perfectly straight.
Problem is, if it ever happened:Damage mode considerations. Fire performance considerations.
Conduction considerations, sound, heat/cold, electricity in the event.
I’m all for such ideas, steel is infinitely recyclable. Then again so is wood.
My issue I suppose is commercial considerations are not aligned with residential owner considerations.
Particularly with regard to fire resistance, acoustic and thermal performance.
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