New Home Developer, which one?!
Discussion
I work with developers and house builders too. I agree a good site manager is important, but I also think that there's only so much influence they can have if the company and culture is poor. On that basis, there are some housebuilders who are on my never buy from list.
Of those I've worked with (and I'm typically involved from commencement on site to completion), I personally would never ever buy a Persimmon home, a Taylor Wimpey home (they have gone down hill very quickly recently with cost saving attempts) or a Crest Nicholson home. In my experience of these, all have no interest in quality and have a culture of pumping out the s
ttest product possible to achieve their margins. They don't resource their management and site staff sufficiently to achieve any kind of programme or quality certainty and have all without exception lost interest as soon as the units are handed over.
I've had good experiences with Berkeley and Redrow (although only actually worked with Redrow once and that was a few years ago). Bellway seemed to depend on the site team/region.
Of those I've worked with (and I'm typically involved from commencement on site to completion), I personally would never ever buy a Persimmon home, a Taylor Wimpey home (they have gone down hill very quickly recently with cost saving attempts) or a Crest Nicholson home. In my experience of these, all have no interest in quality and have a culture of pumping out the s
ttest product possible to achieve their margins. They don't resource their management and site staff sufficiently to achieve any kind of programme or quality certainty and have all without exception lost interest as soon as the units are handed over.I've had good experiences with Berkeley and Redrow (although only actually worked with Redrow once and that was a few years ago). Bellway seemed to depend on the site team/region.
Paul Lazzaro said:
I work with developers and house builders too. I agree a good site manager is important, but I also think that there's only so much influence they can have if the company and culture is poor. On that basis, there are some housebuilders who are on my never buy from list.
Of those I've worked with (and I'm typically involved from commencement on site to completion), I personally would never ever buy a Persimmon home, a Taylor Wimpey home (they have gone down hill very quickly recently with cost saving attempts) or a Crest Nicholson home. In my experience of these, all have no interest in quality and have a culture of pumping out the sttest product possible to achieve their margins. They don't resource their management and site staff sufficiently to achieve any kind of programme or quality certainty and have all without exception lost interest as soon as the units are handed over.
I've had good experiences with Berkeley and Redrow (although only actually worked with Redrow once and that was a few years ago). Bellway seemed to depend on the site team/region.
Regional culture is usually driven by the regional MDOf those I've worked with (and I'm typically involved from commencement on site to completion), I personally would never ever buy a Persimmon home, a Taylor Wimpey home (they have gone down hill very quickly recently with cost saving attempts) or a Crest Nicholson home. In my experience of these, all have no interest in quality and have a culture of pumping out the s
ttest product possible to achieve their margins. They don't resource their management and site staff sufficiently to achieve any kind of programme or quality certainty and have all without exception lost interest as soon as the units are handed over.I've had good experiences with Berkeley and Redrow (although only actually worked with Redrow once and that was a few years ago). Bellway seemed to depend on the site team/region.
It’s hard to judge a builder vs builder because build quality will vary from site to site depending on trades and the manager. I have a David Wilson house which I bought brand new in 2021, I had very few snags, all of which where cosmetic and sorted quickly
As David Wilson are supposed to be more “premium” we got a higher spec than a same sized barrat house, stuff like towel radiators in the bathrooms, grass in the garden etc.
Between any of the majors apart from persimmon who give you nothing I would just pick on location, plot and house types vs who the builder is.
We chose DW because they’re the only people who where building here,
It’s a bit like choosing between a ceed, a focus or a golf, all the same product, made much the same, with just a few touches extra.
Redrow build the nicest houses with bigger windows and higher ceilings though.
As David Wilson are supposed to be more “premium” we got a higher spec than a same sized barrat house, stuff like towel radiators in the bathrooms, grass in the garden etc.
Between any of the majors apart from persimmon who give you nothing I would just pick on location, plot and house types vs who the builder is.
We chose DW because they’re the only people who where building here,
It’s a bit like choosing between a ceed, a focus or a golf, all the same product, made much the same, with just a few touches extra.
Redrow build the nicest houses with bigger windows and higher ceilings though.
Saleen836 said:
blueg33 said:
I am a developer and have sat on the boards of some of those mentioned
No housebuilder sets out to do a bad job
Some have better specs than others and spec will vary depending on location and market
Site manager is important in terms of quality, so look at other units on the site
Snag it several times during build and don't be afraid of setting out issues in writing
Identify when their year end is, you may get a better deal if you can complete by year end
A couple of sites I work on the site managers are very good but then get overruled by the contract manager with stupid deadlines, even going so far as telling 2nd fix trades to get plots finished before I had even started in them (tape/jointed) because apparently that gets the plots finished faster No housebuilder sets out to do a bad job
Some have better specs than others and spec will vary depending on location and market
Site manager is important in terms of quality, so look at other units on the site
Snag it several times during build and don't be afraid of setting out issues in writing
Identify when their year end is, you may get a better deal if you can complete by year end
There is the idealised top down view.
Then the coal face reality.
The painters who did the settlement crack aesthetic fixes in mine told of similar out of phase processes that were just really silly but done any way.
They weren’t impressed by it.
And personally I wasn’t impressed by their work, which just shows how bad these other properties they were working on must have been.
But of course, no one sets out to build bad houses, so it’s all ok because it must all be accidents.
Mr Whippy said:
Saleen836 said:
blueg33 said:
I am a developer and have sat on the boards of some of those mentioned
No housebuilder sets out to do a bad job
Some have better specs than others and spec will vary depending on location and market
Site manager is important in terms of quality, so look at other units on the site
Snag it several times during build and don't be afraid of setting out issues in writing
Identify when their year end is, you may get a better deal if you can complete by year end
A couple of sites I work on the site managers are very good but then get overruled by the contract manager with stupid deadlines, even going so far as telling 2nd fix trades to get plots finished before I had even started in them (tape/jointed) because apparently that gets the plots finished faster No housebuilder sets out to do a bad job
Some have better specs than others and spec will vary depending on location and market
Site manager is important in terms of quality, so look at other units on the site
Snag it several times during build and don't be afraid of setting out issues in writing
Identify when their year end is, you may get a better deal if you can complete by year end
There is the idealised top down view.
Then the coal face reality.
The painters who did the settlement crack aesthetic fixes in mine told of similar out of phase processes that were just really silly but done any way.
They weren’t impressed by it.
And personally I wasn’t impressed by their work, which just shows how bad these other properties they were working on must have been.
But of course, no one sets out to build bad houses, so it’s all ok because it must all be accidents.
Because there are some problems with some houses does not mean that the whole industry has those problems. There are many more happy buyers than unhappy ones.
blueg33 said:
Because there are some problems with some houses does not mean that the whole industry has those problems. There are many more happy buyers than unhappy ones.
Back in the 90s I used to do independent QC for a HA which block bought units from a developer over multiple sites.The quality from the 'best' site to the worst was night and day.
All the good ones had finishing foremen - the worst didn't. It's all about management, at all sorts of levels.
jules_s said:
blueg33 said:
Because there are some problems with some houses does not mean that the whole industry has those problems. There are many more happy buyers than unhappy ones.
Back in the 90s I used to do independent QC for a HA which block bought units from a developer over multiple sites.The quality from the 'best' site to the worst was night and day.
All the good ones had finishing foremen - the worst didn't. It's all about management, at all sorts of levels.
blueg33 said:
Indeed. And an illustration off the tensions a developer is juggling. A finishing foreman is an extra cost, sometimes the market won’t stand the extra cost
How does anyone know what’s going on behind the superficial finish? The pro-sniggers aren’t going to pick up structural short-cuts or things like cold bridging, unsealed plasterboard causing draughts etc.
Sheepshanks said:
blueg33 said:
Indeed. And an illustration off the tensions a developer is juggling. A finishing foreman is an extra cost, sometimes the market won’t stand the extra cost
How does anyone know what’s going on behind the superficial finish? The pro-sniggers aren’t going to pick up structural short-cuts or things like cold bridging, unsealed plasterboard causing draughts etc.
TBH a pro snagger is a bit crap if he can't pick up drafts.
I’m not sure there’s a hard and fast rule to picking one developer over another TBH. I’m having quite a few issues with the house I’m in the process of buying yet it’s from one of the developers (or at least the same group) mentioned in this thread as being one of the better ones.
Location, design and spec will be the main considerations for most.
Location, design and spec will be the main considerations for most.
blueg33 said:
Without doubt some trades people are crap and some management crap just like any other business using hundreds of people to make something by hand.
Because there are some problems with some houses does not mean that the whole industry has those problems. There are many more happy buyers than unhappy ones.
I was asked to have a team in today to get an apartment block in the dry. Duly sent in 8 lads raring to go ( Even in the rain) Because there are some problems with some houses does not mean that the whole industry has those problems. There are many more happy buyers than unhappy ones.
Pull up on site to lots of people standing about gesticulating and chin scratching. The chippies have craned and set the trusses, and all the walls have bulged. Further investigation reveals not a tie to be seen. Chippies have condemned and are pulling the trusses off. Walls to come down ( They’re already in 2 month delay) I really felt for the CM, who’s a decent fella, with 2 lazy b
d SM’s round him. How much has this cost P*******n ? Including my money for an aborted visit ? I’m finger in the air at 50k+…blueg33 said:
Sheepshanks said:
blueg33 said:
Indeed. And an illustration off the tensions a developer is juggling. A finishing foreman is an extra cost, sometimes the market won’t stand the extra cost
How does anyone know what’s going on behind the superficial finish? The pro-sniggers aren’t going to pick up structural short-cuts or things like cold bridging, unsealed plasterboard causing draughts etc.
TBH a pro snagger is a bit crap if he can't pick up drafts.
The remedy really is any development needs a council BC on site often enough to check compliance with standards.
And once again, anyone gone to town on a draft remedy?
The two developments I’ve been involved with have had filibustering, avoidance, it’s within tolerance, bodge fixes to shut people up, leaving a mess, etc etc.
I really do appreciate you have a fine perspective of this industry, but at a consumer level it’s pretty heart-wrenching stuff.
Ie, my rafters were exposed to my cavity running down into bathroom and that then down through the hall, and then into the basement loo area.
“Oh, we can’t spot everything”, despite it having been ‘sealed’ but rather terribly. Clearly no one checking other peoples work, or people checking and saying “ok”?
Any way the resolution was squirty foam blasted into a gap all around the vent pipe at least 50mm.
Not really sealed still, and into the rafter area, I now assume touching the felt to the inner plasterboard and causing a cold bridge, and a raised area on the felt possibly leading water towards the rafter and nail penetration point.
When all this was mentioned to the chap doing it, more filibustering, nah, that’s ok, the slates are there to stop rain, etc.
Rather than spend 30mins remedying the issue as it should be, it’s bodged and yet somehow they still take 30mins.
I’m sure I could walk onto any direct to consumer new build site today and pick faults on every property, many faults to be ultimately hidden from sight.
Myriad more in fixing snags.
Never mind the multitude of aesthetic snags which personally I’m neutral on, but which customers/developers appear to think are the sum total of things “we need to worry about”
I know this topic is well trodden ground.
Perceptions from a managerial point of view vs those from a customer point of view… Both are valid.
But housing managers go home to a nice house, probably very expensive, high quality, and it’s just a job/work.
Customers make their lives and homes in these houses, so their concerns may be strewn with emotions, but they’re ultimately the ones I’m more concerned about.
No matter what you say, I think we need independent building control back on sites and stopping developers doing bad stuff.
I assume you’d be keen for that to happen and wouldn’t oppose it?
Mr Whippy said:
You won’t spot a draft if it’s warm and calm weather, as easily as a cold blowy day in winter.
The remedy really is any development needs a council BC on site often enough to check compliance with standards.
And once again, anyone gone to town on a draft remedy?
The two developments I’ve been involved with have had filibustering, avoidance, it’s within tolerance, bodge fixes to shut people up, leaving a mess, etc etc.
I really do appreciate you have a fine perspective of this industry, but at a consumer level it’s pretty heart-wrenching stuff.
Ie, my rafters were exposed to my cavity running down into bathroom and that then down through the hall, and then into the basement loo area.
“Oh, we can’t spot everything”, despite it having been ‘sealed’ but rather terribly. Clearly no one checking other peoples work, or people checking and saying “ok”?
Any way the resolution was squirty foam blasted into a gap all around the vent pipe at least 50mm.
Not really sealed still, and into the rafter area, I now assume touching the felt to the inner plasterboard and causing a cold bridge, and a raised area on the felt possibly leading water towards the rafter and nail penetration point.
When all this was mentioned to the chap doing it, more filibustering, nah, that’s ok, the slates are there to stop rain, etc.
Rather than spend 30mins remedying the issue as it should be, it’s bodged and yet somehow they still take 30mins.
I’m sure I could walk onto any direct to consumer new build site today and pick faults on every property, many faults to be ultimately hidden from sight.
Myriad more in fixing snags.
Never mind the multitude of aesthetic snags which personally I’m neutral on, but which customers/developers appear to think are the sum total of things “we need to worry about”
I know this topic is well trodden ground.
Perceptions from a managerial point of view vs those from a customer point of view… Both are valid.
But housing managers go home to a nice house, probably very expensive, high quality, and it’s just a job/work.
Customers make their lives and homes in these houses, so their concerns may be strewn with emotions, but they’re ultimately the ones I’m more concerned about.
No matter what you say, I think we need independent building control back on sites and stopping developers doing bad stuff.
I assume you’d be keen for that to happen and wouldn’t oppose it?
Independent BC wouldn’t worry me, except that if it’s state managed it would cause delay. The remedy really is any development needs a council BC on site often enough to check compliance with standards.
And once again, anyone gone to town on a draft remedy?
The two developments I’ve been involved with have had filibustering, avoidance, it’s within tolerance, bodge fixes to shut people up, leaving a mess, etc etc.
I really do appreciate you have a fine perspective of this industry, but at a consumer level it’s pretty heart-wrenching stuff.
Ie, my rafters were exposed to my cavity running down into bathroom and that then down through the hall, and then into the basement loo area.
“Oh, we can’t spot everything”, despite it having been ‘sealed’ but rather terribly. Clearly no one checking other peoples work, or people checking and saying “ok”?
Any way the resolution was squirty foam blasted into a gap all around the vent pipe at least 50mm.
Not really sealed still, and into the rafter area, I now assume touching the felt to the inner plasterboard and causing a cold bridge, and a raised area on the felt possibly leading water towards the rafter and nail penetration point.
When all this was mentioned to the chap doing it, more filibustering, nah, that’s ok, the slates are there to stop rain, etc.
Rather than spend 30mins remedying the issue as it should be, it’s bodged and yet somehow they still take 30mins.
I’m sure I could walk onto any direct to consumer new build site today and pick faults on every property, many faults to be ultimately hidden from sight.
Myriad more in fixing snags.
Never mind the multitude of aesthetic snags which personally I’m neutral on, but which customers/developers appear to think are the sum total of things “we need to worry about”
I know this topic is well trodden ground.
Perceptions from a managerial point of view vs those from a customer point of view… Both are valid.
But housing managers go home to a nice house, probably very expensive, high quality, and it’s just a job/work.
Customers make their lives and homes in these houses, so their concerns may be strewn with emotions, but they’re ultimately the ones I’m more concerned about.
No matter what you say, I think we need independent building control back on sites and stopping developers doing bad stuff.
I assume you’d be keen for that to happen and wouldn’t oppose it?
Mr Whippy said:
No matter what you say, I think we need independent building control back on sites and stopping developers doing bad stuff.
I assume you’d be keen for that to happen and wouldn’t oppose it?
Building Control enforce Building Regulations and their powers are limited to non-compliance with Building Regulations. They are not Quality Controllers.I assume you’d be keen for that to happen and wouldn’t oppose it?
NHBC actually have more powers in that regard, and NHBC standards are more comprehensive and detailed than B.Regs.
Some developers do use Local Authority Building Control (and some use a mix of NHBC and LABC across different sites). It makes no difference to the quality of the finished house either way, in my experience.
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