If I could lay a bet at Ladbrokes........
Discussion
I am still plodding on with comissioning our SF-901 ex Lister/TVR dyno and I got to wondering if I'll get it sorted before the new TVR comes out and if Ladbrokes would take a bet either way?
Superflow have ceased support for the older SF-901 which has caused some delays
We discovered the dyno was shipped originally with lbsft/bhp eproms and software, we only had Metric software and calibration was all over the place! We nmanaged to update the software to lbsft/bhp and it is getting much closer, the calibration hanger and weight arm should show 25 and a bit lbs ft we showed 19.8. Adding a 50 lb weight to the 3 ft calibration arm gave a reading of 169 lbs ft, 149.2 extra. Looks like we are on the right path.
A thank you to Harold Bettes for pointing us in the right direction.
We still have to connect the water pipes into our water tank and replace a faulty water pump on the return feed ,£621 inc vat for direct replacement
I have a friend machining steel crank to dyno adapters for B series, A series and Rover V8 engines to start with. We have decided on steel adapters as cast iron ones would have no give and maybe snap with any misalingment.
So that is my state of play, May 2015 till now. Will I get it running before the TVR comes along?
Peter
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Superflow have ceased support for the older SF-901 which has caused some delays
We discovered the dyno was shipped originally with lbsft/bhp eproms and software, we only had Metric software and calibration was all over the place! We nmanaged to update the software to lbsft/bhp and it is getting much closer, the calibration hanger and weight arm should show 25 and a bit lbs ft we showed 19.8. Adding a 50 lb weight to the 3 ft calibration arm gave a reading of 169 lbs ft, 149.2 extra. Looks like we are on the right path.
A thank you to Harold Bettes for pointing us in the right direction.
We still have to connect the water pipes into our water tank and replace a faulty water pump on the return feed ,£621 inc vat for direct replacement
I have a friend machining steel crank to dyno adapters for B series, A series and Rover V8 engines to start with. We have decided on steel adapters as cast iron ones would have no give and maybe snap with any misalingment.
So that is my state of play, May 2015 till now. Will I get it running before the TVR comes along?
Peter
I assume the interface is a classic old serial (RS232) port one? If so, it is pretty trivial to hack the data stream and do your own software. You be surprised (maybe) at how easy, with free Windows development environments like Visual Studio or Python and numerous others!
Doing this also means you could add a lot of extra logging instrumentation kit for pressures and temperatures and voltages etc using cheap, off the shelf and standardised serial output modules, such as the ADAM/NUDAM modules.
Doing this also means you could add a lot of extra logging instrumentation kit for pressures and temperatures and voltages etc using cheap, off the shelf and standardised serial output modules, such as the ADAM/NUDAM modules.
It is serial connection. There are a lot of inputs on the system, I'll list them for you when I can. as supplied by Superflow and additions by Lister. I think someone had the Superflow catalogue when the dyno was ordered and bought all the lovely goodies too! You would always be most welcome to pop in and have a look if you are ever passing J28 M1, advice and suggestions are always welcome.
Peter
Peter
Is this a 901 dyno with the later electronics box? It will look like this:
Or is it the early version with the board built into the cabinet?
Also what version of Windyn are you on?
It should be possible to deal with your calibration issues through Windyn even if the calibration is in EPROM as you should be able to create additional math channels to give you a calibrated channel to record, as long as your load cell output is clean and linear if it isn't calibrated perfectly in "hardware". You can even create additional channels for NM, KW etc. if required as it's all just math off the original value.
Or is it the early version with the board built into the cabinet?
Also what version of Windyn are you on?
It should be possible to deal with your calibration issues through Windyn even if the calibration is in EPROM as you should be able to create additional math channels to give you a calibrated channel to record, as long as your load cell output is clean and linear if it isn't calibrated perfectly in "hardware". You can even create additional channels for NM, KW etc. if required as it's all just math off the original value.
Ours is so old I think it has steam input valve 
Ours is around 1992 so early cabinet. I think my friend Martin should be ok with the standard internal calibration now the laptop is talking the same language as the cabinet, I understand the eproms are specific to the software but haven't really a clue! I am not sure of which version I am running, next time I am in the other unit I'll have a look. The 'read me' file for the software update for lbs/ft and bhp is 2003.
I now have my next hurdle. Lister altered the system so it uses a clutch centre and adaptor plates to drive the dyno rather than clutch assembly and change input shaft for each motor tested. We will source a new solid centre rather than sprung-type which has 'died' from use and make new system to use an adaptor to suit the end of crank we test.
Peter
Ours is around 1992 so early cabinet. I think my friend Martin should be ok with the standard internal calibration now the laptop is talking the same language as the cabinet, I understand the eproms are specific to the software but haven't really a clue! I am not sure of which version I am running, next time I am in the other unit I'll have a look. The 'read me' file for the software update for lbs/ft and bhp is 2003.
I now have my next hurdle. Lister altered the system so it uses a clutch centre and adaptor plates to drive the dyno rather than clutch assembly and change input shaft for each motor tested. We will source a new solid centre rather than sprung-type which has 'died' from use and make new system to use an adaptor to suit the end of crank we test.
Peter
Looks like we beat TVR as we have finally got the SF-901 running, we paid for it April 2015, put it in the spare unit May 2015.
We fired up an MGB engine on it Friday and today after more running in we started to do some power tests. Attached pic shows part throttle as we were bedding in the engine, We are hoping for around 100 bhp, so far quick bursts have shown 93. We still have to connect lots of bits and bobs but at least we are up and running. My son Simon and my mate Dave will be adding the afr monitoring, oil pressure to console instead of gauge on side of engine and letting the computer take over the tests as, at the moment, I am juggling the load and throttle manually just like the old water brake rolling road days. A few water leaks including a big 'un when a pipe came off a join on a two inch pipe with water driven by a 10 bhp pump
We fired up an MGB engine on it Friday and today after more running in we started to do some power tests. Attached pic shows part throttle as we were bedding in the engine, We are hoping for around 100 bhp, so far quick bursts have shown 93. We still have to connect lots of bits and bobs but at least we are up and running. My son Simon and my mate Dave will be adding the afr monitoring, oil pressure to console instead of gauge on side of engine and letting the computer take over the tests as, at the moment, I am juggling the load and throttle manually just like the old water brake rolling road days. A few water leaks including a big 'un when a pipe came off a join on a two inch pipe with water driven by a 10 bhp pump
It was too good an offer to turn down and maybe my only chance of getting a really good engine dyno. We paid £12000 for the complete setup, three of us putting in to the pot. The setup is excellent with nearly all the accessories that were available in 92. I am guessing it cost at least another £10000 to sort the spare unit and get things to the point we could fire up an engine on Friday. It took a long time to fit the engine, as it was the first we had put on the dyno, sort of like an engine fit but in terms of fitting a conversion engine fit into a car!
Already we have seen the benefits of an engine dyno for access, in my excitement to get the cam bedded in I decided to fit the ex system as was. Yesterday we whipped the carbs off and complete ex system to fit the boss for the afr sensor. I have always thought a complete system is the way to go for dyno tuning rather than headers only.
The dyno cell is in our spare unit which we use for storage, I built the cell in 2001 and, until the dyno arrived, I stored heat logs for our wood burning stove in it I had the brand new Clayton 250 bhp dyno but never got round to fitting it as I needed to build a cart etc etc whereas the sf901 is a complete package.
It looks like our first paying customer will be a guy we know who builds and races classic F1 engines and cars so we should be having a DFV engine on the dyno which we are getting excited about
Already Simon and Dave are looking at more modern electronic components and maybe even running it back to back with a Yourdyno system but I quite fancy the output from the 90s Windows 98 software, maybe I am getting old!
With regard to the Yourdyno setup we have been running one back to back with our Dynocom software for quite a few months, we get better integration of the coastdown losses to wheel power figures , already showing up is the wheel figures peak lower than the computed 'flywheel' figures as the increasing losses mask the actual peak which is what we have always thought must be the case.
All in all we have been working hard on both dynos this year with very fruitful results and knowledge gained. We can compare and contrast inertia vs pau controlled runs, apart from turbo/sc applications where the pau makes a dramatic difference at the start of a run the inertia is by far the best for repeatabilty between runs to see effects. I suspect the same will obtain with the sf901 in terms of acceleration rates per second testing vs power recorded.
Todays job on the sf901 is balance the input/output water supply and raise the return cistern as the return pump is cavitating and not pumping once it has emptied. It runs on a float valve when the cistern is full.
All fun stuff and maybe helps keep me young
Already we have seen the benefits of an engine dyno for access, in my excitement to get the cam bedded in I decided to fit the ex system as was. Yesterday we whipped the carbs off and complete ex system to fit the boss for the afr sensor. I have always thought a complete system is the way to go for dyno tuning rather than headers only.
The dyno cell is in our spare unit which we use for storage, I built the cell in 2001 and, until the dyno arrived, I stored heat logs for our wood burning stove in it
I had the brand new Clayton 250 bhp dyno but never got round to fitting it as I needed to build a cart etc etc whereas the sf901 is a complete package.It looks like our first paying customer will be a guy we know who builds and races classic F1 engines and cars so we should be having a DFV engine on the dyno which we are getting excited about
Already Simon and Dave are looking at more modern electronic components and maybe even running it back to back with a Yourdyno system but I quite fancy the output from the 90s Windows 98 software, maybe I am getting old!
With regard to the Yourdyno setup we have been running one back to back with our Dynocom software for quite a few months, we get better integration of the coastdown losses to wheel power figures , already showing up is the wheel figures peak lower than the computed 'flywheel' figures as the increasing losses mask the actual peak which is what we have always thought must be the case.
All in all we have been working hard on both dynos this year with very fruitful results and knowledge gained. We can compare and contrast inertia vs pau controlled runs, apart from turbo/sc applications where the pau makes a dramatic difference at the start of a run the inertia is by far the best for repeatabilty between runs to see effects. I suspect the same will obtain with the sf901 in terms of acceleration rates per second testing vs power recorded.
Todays job on the sf901 is balance the input/output water supply and raise the return cistern as the return pump is cavitating and not pumping once it has emptied. It runs on a float valve when the cistern is full.
All fun stuff and maybe helps keep me young
PeterBurgess said:
I have always thought a complete system is the way to go for dyno tuning rather than headers only
Yes and no....but it certainly makes an ideal test bed to see if open headers...short pipe, other....all make a difference, which likely they would.Certainly for applications that will run a full exhaust, absolutely dyno them with that full exhaust.
PeterBurgess said:
Quite right, I had forgotten some applications do not run systems. Just headers.
Have you played with fitting a balance pipe into twin V8 separate full systems? If so, where did you decide to put the balance pipe?
I did years ago on my TT RV8, honestly cant say if performance changed, but IMO it really toned down the sound, and I thought it sounded better.Have you played with fitting a balance pipe into twin V8 separate full systems? If so, where did you decide to put the balance pipe?
I dont think placement of the balance matters so much, perhaps not even size.
X pipes....bit of a mystery those. I'd say placement and design could well make a difference, as I've seen X's that are basically just a balance pipe, to full crossovers, to strange X designs.
I guess they all do something, and probably more critical n/a
But I did wonder for a regular 4cyl car, after watching a lot of the Harris Escorts racing in Malta. Most did just have headers and into a collector, and nothing more.
But when I've seen reports of say a short pipe helping things, a merge collector...even if it seems strange to neck down the diameter then step up, there probably is very good reason for dyno testing those things.
Thanks for that, ex manifolds do seem to be an area of possible improvement in the Bs I do. I read a book 'The scientific design of exhaust and intake systems' by Philip Hubert Smith where he showed a resonator pipe attached to the siamesed centre pipe of a B header to act like the idle branch of the 1 and 4 cylinders when they have 2 into 1 configuration.
We have played with collector merging with Oli next door and it did help but we had the sizing of our centre branch wrong to start with!
The dyno came with loads of exhaust parts and some header parts from the Lister engine they developed for Le Mans, they have some mighty big bore single ex pipes and some odd collectors, not sure if it was for use in the final car or to fit all the sensors.
Dave that works with us is keen to play with manifolds and systems.
I have been banned from playing on the dyno until Simon and Dave get all the gizmos working, I am just excited to see the dyno working, loading and displaying rpm, torque and bhp
We have played with collector merging with Oli next door and it did help but we had the sizing of our centre branch wrong to start with!
The dyno came with loads of exhaust parts and some header parts from the Lister engine they developed for Le Mans, they have some mighty big bore single ex pipes and some odd collectors, not sure if it was for use in the final car or to fit all the sensors.
Dave that works with us is keen to play with manifolds and systems.
I have been banned from playing on the dyno until Simon and Dave get all the gizmos working, I am just excited to see the dyno working, loading and displaying rpm, torque and bhp
This was an interesting episode......cant seem to find it on youtube though, but it definitely was there.
It would make you wonder if header design really is that critical, as they bashed the hell out of some tubes and it really didnt make a lot of difference
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8206042/?ref_=ttep_ep...
It would make you wonder if header design really is that critical, as they bashed the hell out of some tubes and it really didnt make a lot of difference
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8206042/?ref_=ttep_ep...
stevieturbo said:
This was an interesting episode......cant seem to find it on youtube though, but it definitely was there.
It would make you wonder if header design really is that critical, as they bashed the hell out of some tubes and it really didnt make a lot of difference
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8206042/?ref_=ttep_ep...
in this case length is more important than girth....It would make you wonder if header design really is that critical, as they bashed the hell out of some tubes and it really didnt make a lot of difference
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8206042/?ref_=ttep_ep...
mtrehy said:
stevieturbo said:
This was an interesting episode......cant seem to find it on youtube though, but it definitely was there.
It would make you wonder if header design really is that critical, as they bashed the hell out of some tubes and it really didnt make a lot of difference
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8206042/?ref_=ttep_ep...
in this case length is more important than girth....It would make you wonder if header design really is that critical, as they bashed the hell out of some tubes and it really didnt make a lot of difference
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8206042/?ref_=ttep_ep...
they were oversized in the first place.
Length is critical the more highly strung the engine is. I did head work, changed cams and upped compression on my BMW S14. I couldn't understand the behaviour when going from slow speed running and the first application of WOT. AFRs massively different compared to what was seen on the dyno and a massive flat spot, but only on the first application of WOT.
Turns out the lower EGT changes the speed of sound in the exhaust gas and therefore the effective tuned length, changing the effect of the tuned length.
It was never noticeable on the stock engine.
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