Cautionary tale regarding rescue dogs.

[bexVN]

^^^
Actually you are wrong re it being easy to know a puppy farmed dog. These guys are bloody sneaky.

They will often take a puppy farmed litter and move it to a home environment and make it look like the pups were raised in a home. They do the same with imported pups as well. They usually have clever stories as to why Mum isn't actually there or they will use another bh and claim she is their Mum.

Any I digress off the original but just wanted to highlight why people get caught up out by puppy farms.

[ciege]

Thank you OP.

I've had five dogs, however your post is a good reminder to everyone to think very hard before entering into a relationship with a dog.

I miss them terribly, however not sure I'd have any more.

Hope your sister recovers physically and mentally in terms of her relationship with her other dogs!!

[popeyewhite]

bexVN said:

^^^
Actually you are wrong re it being easy to know a puppy farmed dog. These guys are bloody sneaky.

I can accept that, hence my comment about the difference between farmers in urban/rural areas. Farmers I'm referring to are known by everyone, they've farmed well known plots for generations, they're not some dodgy oiks you shouldn't be talking to in the first place.

[bexVN]

popeyewhite said:

bexVN said:

^^^
Actually you are wrong re it being easy to know a puppy farmed dog. These guys are bloody sneaky.

I can accept that, hence my comment about the difference between farmers in urban/rural areas. Farmers I'm referring to are known by everyone, they've farmed well known plots for generations, they're not some dodgy oiks you shouldn't be talking to in the first place.

I honestly don't think anyone mixes up puppy farming/farmers with 'normal' farmers. Though there have been a couple of cases of puppy farming practices being carried out on farms.

The term farming is obviously not just limited to our dairy/agricultural farmers.

In America they are known as Puppy Mills.

[tbourner]

popeyewhite said:

tbourner said:

Well there are breeders, and then there are puppy farmers, and it's hard to know which one you're dealing with without knowing and/or doing some research (which most people don't).

I disagree. Dogs I've bought have all been from a local farmer or from a local resident. You'd have to be complete idiot not to be able to tell the difference between them and a puppy farmer. Perhaps this more of an urban problem though.

tbourner said:

With a farmer you either get a good sale but then no support, so when problems occur (health problems being more prevalent from farmers) the dog usually ends up in a rescue anyway.

Who wants support? Take someone with you who knows dogs, check it out, buy it. Get insurance. Accept some responsibility for the animal you now own. I've had no health problems with farmer provided dogs.what sort of health problems are you referring to?

tbourner said:

Or you see the horrors first hand, and feel sorry for the poor dogs, and decide you should save them by giving them a loving home.

No. You don't.

tbourner said:

In these cases the dogs are indeed less worthy of a loving home. It's not the dogs fault, but that's the way they make money - by making people feel sorry for the dogs. If nobody bought that litter they wouldn't breed another one, that single litter would suffer and be let out or PTS, but then no more dogs would come from that farmer, I've seen it happen.

Precisely my point. You see the young dog's environment, you don't like, you don't buy. With a rescue you have no hint of its provenance.

Yeah as above I don't mean farmers, like; legitimate farming people, I mean puppy-farmers: Those who breed litter after litter purely for the maximum financial gain. Breeding pairs kept in cages their whole life, no vet checkups, weakest pups allowed to be killed or die natually in the welping box (I say box, they're usually all shoved in an outhouse of some kind and left, never cleaned out etc.).

We had one from Ireland who phoned us in the rescue and literally said we had to take his breeding bh and her 6 pups as he couldn't sell them, and it would cost him too much to put them all to sleep, so if we don't take them he'll let them out the door to get shot! That was the guy who picked one up by the back legs and threw it into the van of our volunteer - until she had words with him

The health problems depend on the breed. With Huskies a breeder will do parent testing with their vet to check for hip displasia and various eye problems, other breeds would have similar tests of the parents. Also, the parents are usually proven - our boy came from multiple showing and working champions with very good health scores. From a P-farmer you just don't get that, so you take a chance, and because of the conditions and the pedigree of the parents they are more likely to have litters with genetic problems.

You may well be a person who can see the conditions and decide not to buy the pup, but many many people are not. One very common story from people giving up dogs to rescue was that they got it from an advert on gumtree or somewhere, and the house was a mess or the "breeder" was rude or whatever; and that they just wanted to save one of the pups. It's really hard to walk away and leave several cute helpless animals in poor conditions, but that is the only way to shut down their business.

[johnxjsc1985]

Rescued 6 large Dogs 4 GSD and 1 Bull Mastiff and 1 mut. All lovely but one did have severe fear aggression problems and spent a lot of time with the staff at the RSPCA and we did visit daily for 3 weeks to socialise the other 2 Dogs.
Firstly I really hope the poor women recovers from this terrible ordeal it sounds and looks absolutely horrific something has gone terribly wrong here.

[ChocolateFrog]

Sister's doing well. My little man is helping her to get over the anxiety.

[Xtriple129]

Re puppy farms. There is a 'proper' farm round here where the owner also breeds puppies... badly. He is a person who is not to be trusted with a goldfish let alone dogs! I have one of his dogs, she is the sickliest hound I have ever known she has had about 6-7 major operations, is crippled with arthritus at 10 years old (started when she was just 6) and is terrified of people even now after 10 years of love and adoration. Obviously, I love her to bits but I feel so sorry for her as if she had had a better start to life (than being shut in a windowless shed for the first 4 months of her life, surrounded by her own filth!) then she may not be so bloody scared of everyone. She is much better than she was, she just ignores everyone now.

Puppy farmers should all get in the sea!

[Thevet]

So much crap after the terrible attack, sadly the dog should have been put to sleep. Many dogs including our rescue Rott have have tough times, and can be difficult to rehome, but they are at the end of the day animals with big teeth and are related to wolves, sometimes it goes wrong, that is not necesarily the dog's fault, but it may mean it is not possible to keep that animal in a "domestic" environment. We take a chance with the softest of labradors but not all pit bulls are nasty (rip daisy x) People must understand that animals are not familiar with our world, they are used to fighting for the next step up the ladder. We all try to pick a breed for the traits we want but we can't get away from the fact that dogs were once predators in a competitive pack culture. Dogs are not completely predictable, I wish humans were put to sleep for such behaviour, it would help everyone. Best wishes to OP and family hope recovery is smooth and quick, don't give up on animals they are better than people most of the time

[Lazermilk]

ChocolateFrog said:

Sister's doing well. My little man is helping her to get over the anxiety.

Glad to hear she is doing well and that she hasn't been put off dogs completely after that, great pic too

[Lazermilk]

Thevet said:

So much crap after the terrible attack, sadly the dog should have been put to sleep. Many dogs including our rescue Rott have have tough times, and can be difficult to rehome, but they are at the end of the day animals with big teeth and are related to wolves, sometimes it goes wrong, that is not necesarily the dog's fault, but it may mean it is not possible to keep that animal in a "domestic" environment. We take a chance with the softest of labradors but not all pit bulls are nasty (rip daisy x) People must understand that animals are not familiar with our world, they are used to fighting for the next step up the ladder. We all try to pick a breed for the traits we want but we can't get away from the fact that dogs were once predators in a competitive pack culture. Dogs are not completely predictable, I wish humans were put to sleep for such behaviour, it would help everyone. Best wishes to OP and family hope recovery is smooth and quick, don't give up on animals they are better than people most of the time

I know he is controversial, but Cesar Milan's worst bite was from a Labrador and he mainly deals with pit bulls etc, i'm sure I read something about Labradors being top of the list for bites in UK also, so its not always the breeds people would typically expect to be there.

[popeyewhite]

Lazermilk said:

Thevet said:

So much crap after the terrible attack, sadly the dog should have been put to sleep. Many dogs including our rescue Rott have have tough times, and can be difficult to rehome, but they are at the end of the day animals with big teeth and are related to wolves, sometimes it goes wrong, that is not necesarily the dog's fault, but it may mean it is not possible to keep that animal in a "domestic" environment. We take a chance with the softest of labradors but not all pit bulls are nasty (rip daisy x) People must understand that animals are not familiar with our world, they are used to fighting for the next step up the ladder. We all try to pick a breed for the traits we want but we can't get away from the fact that dogs were once predators in a competitive pack culture. Dogs are not completely predictable, I wish humans were put to sleep for such behaviour, it would help everyone. Best wishes to OP and family hope recovery is smooth and quick, don't give up on animals they are better than people most of the time

I know he is controversial, but Cesar Milan's worst bite was from a Labrador and he mainly deals with pit bulls etc, i'm sure I read something about Labradors being top of the list for bites in UK also, so its not always the breeds people would typically expect to be there.

A dog is an animal that bites, that's not a revelation. You can mitigate the chances of owning a dog that might have issues that lead to it biting a human by checking as much of its history as possible. This is much easier if you buy as a puppy from a reputable source, and not if you buy as an older rescue dog with no history. It's no surprise Labs top the list for bites in the UK as they are the most popular dog in the UK by some margin!

[tbourner]

Lazermilk said:

I know he is controversial, but Cesar Milan's worst bite was from a Labrador and he mainly deals with pit bulls etc, i'm sure I read something about Labradors being top of the list for bites in UK also, so its not always the breeds people would typically expect to be there.

Cesar Milan should never be used to provide evidence of any dog behaviour, he's an idiot.

For the top 10 type lists the problem is it's usually large powerful dogs at the top, which is a statement of capability rather than intent. Small yappy little sts which are usually aggressive (due to being picked up all the time) never make the list as they are far less capable of causing serious damage.

[robbocop33]

tbourner said:

Cesar Milan should never be used to provide evidence of any dog behaviour, he's an idiot.

For the top 10 type lists the problem is it's usually large powerful dogs at the top, which is a statement of capability rather than intent. Small yappy little sts which are usually aggressive (due to being picked up all the time) never make the list as they are far less capable of causing serious damage.

The only time my Husky was ever attacked was by 3 'yappy little sts', hairy little terrier types, all three at once! I literally had to launch them with the tip of my size 11,s.
Only time 'i' ve' been attacked was by a Collie?
And on a side note we've had four rescue dogs and not a problem. Two setters, one Siberian Husky and a huge pointer/dane cross, cracking big dog, grey with yelliw starey eyes, scared the hell out of people with her eyes but she was the loveliest big lump, that was a tough one losing her, her back end went. She was a huge lump and i probably spent too long at the latter end carrying her in and out of the car etc so she could have a sniff about! :-)

Edited by robbocop33 on Tuesday 12th June 08:53

[Lazermilk]

tbourner said:

Lazermilk said:

I know he is controversial, but Cesar Milan's worst bite was from a Labrador and he mainly deals with pit bulls etc, i'm sure I read something about Labradors being top of the list for bites in UK also, so its not always the breeds people would typically expect to be there.

Cesar Milan should never be used to provide evidence of any dog behaviour, he's an idiot.

For the top 10 type lists the problem is it's usually large powerful dogs at the top, which is a statement of capability rather than intent. Small yappy little sts which are usually aggressive (due to being picked up all the time) never make the list as they are far less capable of causing serious damage.

Hence why I said hes controversial, it was just an example and im not going to debate if he is any good or not, people can have their own opinion on him.

Still stand by that example since the majority of dogs he deals with are pitbull types, which most people see as being the worst breed of all with regards to aggression, when in fact its pretty much down to being trained that way or misunderstood in most cases. Pretty sure most people wouldn't expect a lab to bite like that, but my point was more that any dog could do it regardless of breed.

Regarding Popeye's comment above, I also realise there are a lot more labs in the country, but you rarely hear about them in the media, its usually the typical 'powerful' breeds that get the bad press when something happens.

[AC123]

Too much emphasis is put on trying to re-home every dog possible, there are many that should be put down for a variety of reasons.

This would also help encourage people to adopt, knowing that they are more likely to get a "good" dog.

[johnxjsc1985]

AC123 said:

Too much emphasis is put on trying to re-home every dog possible, there are many that should be put down for a variety of reasons.

This would also help encourage people to adopt, knowing that they are more likely to get a "good" dog.

What reasons should prevent a Dog from being rescued ?.
The RSPCA and the Dogs Trust do a lot of work with Dogs to ensure their suitability for rehoming. I don't think ( I maybe wrong) Dogs was from either of these instituions

[The Moose]

johnxjsc1985 said:

AC123 said:

Too much emphasis is put on trying to re-home every dog possible, there are many that should be put down for a variety of reasons.

This would also help encourage people to adopt, knowing that they are more likely to get a "good" dog.

What reasons should prevent a Dog from being rescued ?.
The RSPCA and the Dogs Trust do a lot of work with Dogs to ensure their suitability for rehoming. I don't think ( I maybe wrong) Dogs was from either of these instituions

How about bite history?

I don't know what the RSPCA/DT has to do with what AC123 said - too much emphasis was put on trying to re-home the OP's sister's dog with nearly disastrous consequences.

[johnxjsc1985]

he referred to "every Dog possible" not just this case that's what the RSPCA and Dogs Trust have to do with it.My three rescued German Shepherds two from RSPCA and one from Dogs Trust had issues and one in particular had really serious fear aggression issues and we spent a lot of time with the staff working with them to overcome these. We had two of them for 8 or 9 years and the other problem Dog is still with us.

[popeyewhite]

johnxjsc1985 said:

What reasons should prevent a Dog from being rescued ?.

Aggression, anxiety, as above - bite history, disobedience, destructive behaviour etc etc