Family protection dogs
Discussion
Some great advice. The last few suggestions ie chaperone and one given to me via pm ie K9 protector seem excellent. Fantastic credentials and very knowledgeable when speaking on the phone.
I will be visiting one of them next week.
Thanks once again to all those who have offered constructive advice and support. Some have done so via PM and not posted on the thread because they didn't want to deal with the idiots.
I will be visiting one of them next week.
Thanks once again to all those who have offered constructive advice and support. Some have done so via PM and not posted on the thread because they didn't want to deal with the idiots.
Lemming Train said:
It amazes me how certain people in this thread think that their dog is some kind of machine that will protect them from everything. Completely deluded.
I don't think it is deluded - clearly, no dog can protect the owner from 'everything', but the primary value of a dog, is that it can alert the owner to intruders and provide a visual deterrent to wrong-doers. Having a larger-sized dog as a companion, provides a degree of reassurance (& company) for the owner.There's no single 'right' answer to the OP, as we all have our own set of personal circumstances; all that can really be said, is that whatever dog the OP acquires, will have to be a 'match' for him and his family.
For nearly 30 years, our family owned a large countryside pub in a relatively remote location. We were well aware, that if we were to make an emergency phone call to the Police, it would take them 15 minutes to arrive . . . a great deal can happen in that time.
We had quite a few dogs over the years; because ours was very much a family-friendly pub, we didn't want an Alsatian - purely because folk (especially young children) can be deterred by their 'wolf-like' features - probably a good choice for the OP though.
We also didn't want a Rottweiler or Doberman, because back in the 80s, those breeds (unfairly) suffered a lot of bad press . . . and it was fairly common (at that time), to crop the ears and dock the tails of Dobermans and that's not something that I agree with.
We decided that a dog of 'family-friendly' appearance - something like a larger Labrador 'style' of dog would suit our needs; we looked at what breeds were available and purchased a male Rhodesian Ridgeback. After a few months, we liked owning a dog so much, that we got a female Great Dane X Mastiff. Both dogs were very good with the customers - especially popular with young children.
A couple of points :
Owning any dog is a commitment of time and money; and for many people, it's the commitment aspect that causes most issues.
My dogs were with me almost all the time; as I lived and worked at the pub each day, every day/week/month, I spent far more time with them, than would an 'ordinary' owner. The dogs followed me everywhere around the pub - when it was closed and when it was open; I should mention, it was a big pub, with a large function room which could hold about 250. In the private quarters, the corridor was 100ft long, so I did a lot of walking around. Without any formal training, the dogs soon became aware of circumstances that were outside the norm and in such situations, they provided a very strong vocal & visual deterrent.
Given the time that we spent together, my dogs and I built up a very close level of understanding - far beyond that of owners who have a 9-5pm working life (away from home) and only get to see their dog in the morning and evenings. Unless you have spent a lot of time, living and working alongside dogs, it is impossible to understand the degree of understanding and the 'bond' that can be formed with the dog - certainly, dog ownership has been one of the most rewarding experiences of my life . . . but then, I put masses of time into making it possible.
At that time, I was a keen runner and ignoring the advice of armchair 'experts' I took the dogs with me. It got to a point, where I was running 40-50 miles a week and both dogs loved it; everyone will tell you that Great Danes have weak hearts etc, but mine got into really great shape and lived to be 13.
Some might query that something like a Great Dane 'couldn't' be a protection dog; as a general observation, that might be the case, but mine could and did act very effectively. Many years ago, I had the misfortune to get stuck in some holiday traffic; nearby, I could see a group of 10-15 'scrotes' aged late teens/early 20s - all stripped to the waist and clearly looking for trouble. For no particular reason, they began bombarding the cars with rocks, bricks, clods of earth - anything that they could get their hands on. Unfortunately, they advanced on my van – which began to suffer minor damage. I calmly got out and walked to the rear door; the ‘scrotes’ were slightly confused, because there was only one of me and at least 10 of them. They stood fairly still, until I opened the back door and the dogs came out – I told them (the dogs) what to do and the scumbags fled in haste, carrying their dead and wounded. Of course, I 'shouldn't' have done this, but I found it to be very rewarding.
On another occasion, I was out on a Club run, with a group of half a dozen runners and we happened to run on a road alongside a field which was owned by a former Police Inspector of West Midlands Police. He used to come in the pub and tell me about his ‘attack- trained’ Alsatians . . . which we could see on the other side of the hedge. To our concern, two Alsatians found a gap in the hedge and understandably, we increased our pace as they came after us. As the Alsatians got close by us, my Dane somehow spun around and got behind them . . . and chased them off. Those present, still talk about this incident – apparently, it wasn’t ‘normal’ behaviour from a Dane, but it was normal for my dog. The point that I’d like to make, is that dogs (any breed) are just as variable and individual as are their owners. However, there’s no doubt in my mind, that all dogs benefit from what might be called ‘formal’ and ‘informal’ training – no time is ‘wasted’, when you are training your dog (or having someone train it for you).
Given the OP’s requirements – which are fairly specific, the best option might be that he purchases a highly-trained dog, which will react as he requires in response to a particular set of circumstances.
The only ‘recommendation’ that I would hasten to make, is that he (any dog owner) should 'integrate' the dog into his lifestyle as far as possible; the better the level of integration, the more rewarding will be the ownership. And if the OP is willing to invest a substantial amount of money into purchasing a dog, that’s up to him . . . but my Dane and Ridgeback were worth far more to me, than any price that I’ve seen charged for an attack-trained dog.
Currently, I own another Ridgeback . . . . . . . my missus always said that she didn’t want a dog, but she prefers this one to me . . . I might have to get myself another Dane.
Edited by pubrunner on Wednesday 5th December 16:13
Edited by pubrunner on Wednesday 5th December 16:14
This is Bear - our 5 month old GSD and bought primarily as a pet.
He is turning out to be, so far, a fantastic member of the family. He is not interested in strangers.
He has a fearsome growl and bark - even at five months old yet is not at all nasty.
He is being trained by a former police dog handler - well my wife is and she, in turn, trains the dog whilst the guy watches.
We love him to bits but we want to be sure that he is trained enough to know what he can and cannot do.
He is turning out to be, so far, a fantastic member of the family. He is not interested in strangers.
He has a fearsome growl and bark - even at five months old yet is not at all nasty.
He is being trained by a former police dog handler - well my wife is and she, in turn, trains the dog whilst the guy watches.
We love him to bits but we want to be sure that he is trained enough to know what he can and cannot do.
zygalski said:
This is fantastic stuff OP.
PH at it's absolute finest!
It is indeed.PH at it's absolute finest!
1 Someone posts a question.
2. Gets arsey with some answers he doesn't like/starts being evasive
3. Starts an argument with a troll about how wealthy he is
4. Takes it to PM because he still won't accept any views that are different from his own (on a public forum).
Yep that is classic (typical) pistonheads
I live in a fairly rural area and have 3 Dobermanns. Nobody could get near my house without them knowing about it. All three of them are very different. I have a very sweet rescue from Serbia, sleeps a lot, sits on your lap a lot and generally very loving. If you go to lean forwards while you're sat down, she thinks you're getting up so gets up so she can follow. If she barks it means there really is somebody or something that she wants to alert you about.
I have a UK female rescue. Absolutely wired! Very alert and aware, but doesn't tend to react to everything, a perfect balance of burglar alarm, high energy pet, but also happy to sleep all day but requires mental stimulation. Both the females are VERY affectionate and literally everybody who meets them loves them.
I also have a hyper-wired male UK dog. A pigeon sat on a fence sets him off and he reacts to absolutely everything. He wants to sit at the window and wait for things for him to tell off. He's a lovely dog and everybody that meets him then want's to get a Dobermann, he's a real character. My nearest neighbour thought they saw somebody with a torch in my garden so called the police. The Police parked down the road and tried to creep up to my house. My male kicked off and they couldn't get near without him knowing they were there. He barks and stuff and sometimes goes nuclear, so when he does this and won't be quiet, it means there really is something more than a badger wandering around.
Due to his drive and tendency to guard and the fact he was an utter nightmare to live with, I ended up taking him to a Schtzhund club. The three disciplines are Obedience, Tracking and of course Protection. He's amazing at all disciplines and got his IPO1:
Copied and pasted.......
"For IPO1 the dog must be at least 18 months old and pass an initial temperament test by the judge. The dog must heel off leash, demonstrate the walking sit, the walking down, and the long down under distraction, as well as the send-out. It must retrieve on the flat and over a hurdle, and over the scaling wall. In tracking, it must be able to follow a track laid by its handler at least 20 minutes earlier. There are also protection tests."
This honed his skills and I became one of the licensed helpers (the guy that wears the sleeve). There is a HUGE amount of difference between the dogs that are used to compete in Schutzhund and the security dogs I've worked with. While my dog has an IPO1 and trained on a sleeve, and has his first 'Protection Dog' certification, he's not aggressive , he's a friendly 'pet', loves being part of the family and everybody loves him. Anybody trying to break in would be detected very quickly. While he's done a LOT of training, he's just wired up this so a lot of it depends on the nature of the dog.
Incidentally, while all three of my dogs are very friendly and unlikley to do anything to anybody (unless somebody attacked me or tried to get in the house - eg, a real threat not a perceived one), I have a 4 week old son who I feel is never in any danger from any of the dogs. I'd NEVER test that and am very cautious as dogs think for themselves and do weird unpredictable things sometimes (it's always the ones that have never done anything bad before that end up eating a child right!), but my IPO1 'Protection Dog' is the one i'd trust the most.
I have a UK female rescue. Absolutely wired! Very alert and aware, but doesn't tend to react to everything, a perfect balance of burglar alarm, high energy pet, but also happy to sleep all day but requires mental stimulation. Both the females are VERY affectionate and literally everybody who meets them loves them.
I also have a hyper-wired male UK dog. A pigeon sat on a fence sets him off and he reacts to absolutely everything. He wants to sit at the window and wait for things for him to tell off. He's a lovely dog and everybody that meets him then want's to get a Dobermann, he's a real character. My nearest neighbour thought they saw somebody with a torch in my garden so called the police. The Police parked down the road and tried to creep up to my house. My male kicked off and they couldn't get near without him knowing they were there. He barks and stuff and sometimes goes nuclear, so when he does this and won't be quiet, it means there really is something more than a badger wandering around.
Due to his drive and tendency to guard and the fact he was an utter nightmare to live with, I ended up taking him to a Schtzhund club. The three disciplines are Obedience, Tracking and of course Protection. He's amazing at all disciplines and got his IPO1:
Copied and pasted.......
"For IPO1 the dog must be at least 18 months old and pass an initial temperament test by the judge. The dog must heel off leash, demonstrate the walking sit, the walking down, and the long down under distraction, as well as the send-out. It must retrieve on the flat and over a hurdle, and over the scaling wall. In tracking, it must be able to follow a track laid by its handler at least 20 minutes earlier. There are also protection tests."
This honed his skills and I became one of the licensed helpers (the guy that wears the sleeve). There is a HUGE amount of difference between the dogs that are used to compete in Schutzhund and the security dogs I've worked with. While my dog has an IPO1 and trained on a sleeve, and has his first 'Protection Dog' certification, he's not aggressive , he's a friendly 'pet', loves being part of the family and everybody loves him. Anybody trying to break in would be detected very quickly. While he's done a LOT of training, he's just wired up this so a lot of it depends on the nature of the dog.
Incidentally, while all three of my dogs are very friendly and unlikley to do anything to anybody (unless somebody attacked me or tried to get in the house - eg, a real threat not a perceived one), I have a 4 week old son who I feel is never in any danger from any of the dogs. I'd NEVER test that and am very cautious as dogs think for themselves and do weird unpredictable things sometimes (it's always the ones that have never done anything bad before that end up eating a child right!), but my IPO1 'Protection Dog' is the one i'd trust the most.
I like big dogs, I find them more relaxed and getting a hug from a big dog is lovely.
We chose a Rottweiler due to their nature and it made me feel more comfortable as I work away half the year. It was bought as a family pet and is treated as such, a part of the family.
It has however done things I wouldn’t expect. It looked after a dog which got bullied by a relatives dog, put itself between them and eventually knocked the other dog back with a bit of barking and posturing.
When 2 dogs jumped up at my boy when he was in a carrier he pinned one to the ground by the neck and then chased the other away.
When the FIL came in un-announced once looked at me and the wife on the sofa and belted to the door with his “big boy head on” about to head butted him in the chest, he skidded to a halt when he saw who it was though.
Kept a drunk idiot from climbing into our garden.
It’s a natural instinct, he is part of the family and knows it. Although never left alone he is great when both my boys friends are round and seems to know when to just relax and have a nap.
There are a lot of breeds which make great deterrents while ultimately being a very warm and loving addition to the family. I think if he were a trained protection dog he wouldn’t be aswell intergrated and I doubt I would trust him as much as I do.
I genuinely feel better being away knowing I have a slim, 51kg Rottweiler at home, he would be more of a deterrent than I
.
Dave!
We chose a Rottweiler due to their nature and it made me feel more comfortable as I work away half the year. It was bought as a family pet and is treated as such, a part of the family.
It has however done things I wouldn’t expect. It looked after a dog which got bullied by a relatives dog, put itself between them and eventually knocked the other dog back with a bit of barking and posturing.
When 2 dogs jumped up at my boy when he was in a carrier he pinned one to the ground by the neck and then chased the other away.
When the FIL came in un-announced once looked at me and the wife on the sofa and belted to the door with his “big boy head on” about to head butted him in the chest, he skidded to a halt when he saw who it was though.
Kept a drunk idiot from climbing into our garden.
It’s a natural instinct, he is part of the family and knows it. Although never left alone he is great when both my boys friends are round and seems to know when to just relax and have a nap.
There are a lot of breeds which make great deterrents while ultimately being a very warm and loving addition to the family. I think if he were a trained protection dog he wouldn’t be aswell intergrated and I doubt I would trust him as much as I do.
I genuinely feel better being away knowing I have a slim, 51kg Rottweiler at home, he would be more of a deterrent than I
.
Dave!
Davel said:
This is Bear - our 5 month old GSD and bought primarily as a pet.
He is turning out to be, so far, a fantastic member of the family. He is not interested in strangers.
He has a fearsome growl and bark - even at five months old yet is not at all nasty.
He is being trained by a former police dog handler - well my wife is and she, in turn, trains the dog whilst the guy watches.
We love him to bits but we want to be sure that he is trained enough to know what he can and cannot do.
Er, we may have litter mates! Here is ours, also 5 months old, helping me make an ECU heat shield for the Alfa. Note the family resemblance in the ear department. He is turning out to be, so far, a fantastic member of the family. He is not interested in strangers.
He has a fearsome growl and bark - even at five months old yet is not at all nasty.
He is being trained by a former police dog handler - well my wife is and she, in turn, trains the dog whilst the guy watches.
We love him to bits but we want to be sure that he is trained enough to know what he can and cannot do.
She's called Luna, but her nickname is "Gloves" as in "I'm going to turn that %^$£$£@@ puppy into gloves when I catch it..." She's actually a very good dog given the age, but her ability to destroy cardboard boxes is legendary.
As to the original question, we have an 8 year old GSD and the pup. The 8 year old loves people, and if a burglar showed up, he would be licked to death - but, she puts on a mighty fine show of barking and getting on when she hears anyone approach the house. There's quite a vocabulary:
Ra-ra-ra-ra, loud - "something is out there and I don't know who or what it is"
Ra-howl, ra-howl - "I have identified the intruder as a fox, let me out so I may kill it"
General howling - "someone I know is here, I am greeting them".
Full on werewolf, teeth bared - "this is my Alfa Romeo, go and get one of your own"
To be honest, this is all you want. Any intruder will think twice with that racket going on (and the Pup is learning fast....). I'm not worried about either of them attacking the postman or some random punter collecting for charity. Both can be taken down the pub and will sleep under the table. Both have the natural herding instinct, and will run circles round you when walking, and bring errant children back by their coat tails.
I suspect a full on "protection dog" would have you on the edge of your seat half the time, and anyway, won't protect you against a determined attack. If someone really wants to get you, and knows the dog is there, they'll just kill the dog. The dog's job is to wake you up, or alert you to the fact that someone is out there. There is also the question of training - unless you and your family are willing to be utterly consistent in how you handle the dog, its training will fade fast.
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