Family protection dogs
Discussion
makaveli144 said:
Unfortunately PH probably isn't the best place to get the advice you are after. This is quite a niche area.
I have no idea how much research you have already done and depending on how soon you are wanting the dog, I would recommend going to a working dog show. There was one down south a couple of months ago, I will see if I can find dates for the next.
This will give you the opportunity to see and speak to the handlers/trainers. It will also show you what the dogs are capable of and then you can decide if its definitely what you want.
You will need some training yourself on how to be a confident handler. The dogs themselves should have and on/off command. They don't wander round in a constant state of hyper awareness and aggression contrary to some of the comments on here.They will also have a release command should they ever have the need to bite.
That been said they can be very very serious, and you need to be 100% sure you are ready for it and it's what you want.
Thank you. amongst all the noise a few people get it. I don't yet know if this is the right thing for me or not. However I would guess that a well trained protection dog living in a well balanced family is highly unlikely to attack anybody.I have no idea how much research you have already done and depending on how soon you are wanting the dog, I would recommend going to a working dog show. There was one down south a couple of months ago, I will see if I can find dates for the next.
This will give you the opportunity to see and speak to the handlers/trainers. It will also show you what the dogs are capable of and then you can decide if its definitely what you want.
You will need some training yourself on how to be a confident handler. The dogs themselves should have and on/off command. They don't wander round in a constant state of hyper awareness and aggression contrary to some of the comments on here.They will also have a release command should they ever have the need to bite.
That been said they can be very very serious, and you need to be 100% sure you are ready for it and it's what you want.
In fact I don't recall that any of the awful and sometimes fatal dog attacks in recent memory being committed by professionally trained protection dogs.
Happy to be corrected on that.
As I said before, I have only just started looking into this. It may very well end up not being the right thing for my family.
Thanks for your input
citizensm1th said:
CAPP0 said:
I've kinda given up posting on PH these days but thought I'd chip in on this one. Who knows how that will end! But still...
OP, how much experience do you have of dogs? I can't say for certain but I would expect that trained protection dogs, notwithstanding their level of training, would need to be maintained very much in an "I'm pack leader" mode in order to be (a) effective and most importantly (b) safe.
Are there any reasons you wouldn't consider certain breeds but not a specifically-trained protection dog?
My own GSD, a 4 year old male, has not been trained to protect at all, not even slightly. On top of that. when he was young he was a fearful wuss. However, he has worked out for himself when to bark when something exciting is going on (for example, he LOVES our postie and goes bananas when she's coming along the close), when to bark when something's not quite right and he thinks he needs to be on full alert, and also when to bark when something is very definitely wrong and he believes he needs to step in. All these barks are completely different in tone and speed and we know which is which and react accordingly. For example, an unwanted caller at the door will get Bark 2, which is very useful in getting rid of them, but we also had someone snooping around our cars at 01.30 earlier this year and Bark 3 was very much in evidence, and got rid of the prowler once I'd got up and opened the door. He's backed up by our smaller GSD cross who is not quite as tuned-in as him but also has a different bark tones for different circumstances.
I don't know, and don't want to, whether he would actively step in if one of us was threatened. I suspect he would. But equally, the sight of a large dog from a guard breed with his teeth bared, hackles up and barking furiously would deter a lot of people before it got to that.
Another example - a friend also used to have a GSD, again a complete pet with zero security training. Her partner left her with a small baby, and the dog. She would bring him over to the field for exercise, with the baby in the pushchair, and let him run around, throw balls, etc. He was the perfect canine gentleman. But if anyone he didn't know approached the pushchair, he would just calmly, without any fuss, walk over and put himself between that person and the child. No noise, no fuss, just making sure the child was safe.
What's my point? I'm not quite sure! But I think what I'm saying is, if someone doesn't have much dog experience, I'm not sure a highly-trained protection dog is the right thing for them. Similarly, if you know your way around dogs, you can select a suitable breed/pet who'll do the job without all the potential collateral.
Just my 1p-worth. Hope it helps.
Excellent post and as a gsd owner I cannot agree more with your experience of the breed. OP, how much experience do you have of dogs? I can't say for certain but I would expect that trained protection dogs, notwithstanding their level of training, would need to be maintained very much in an "I'm pack leader" mode in order to be (a) effective and most importantly (b) safe.
Are there any reasons you wouldn't consider certain breeds but not a specifically-trained protection dog?
My own GSD, a 4 year old male, has not been trained to protect at all, not even slightly. On top of that. when he was young he was a fearful wuss. However, he has worked out for himself when to bark when something exciting is going on (for example, he LOVES our postie and goes bananas when she's coming along the close), when to bark when something's not quite right and he thinks he needs to be on full alert, and also when to bark when something is very definitely wrong and he believes he needs to step in. All these barks are completely different in tone and speed and we know which is which and react accordingly. For example, an unwanted caller at the door will get Bark 2, which is very useful in getting rid of them, but we also had someone snooping around our cars at 01.30 earlier this year and Bark 3 was very much in evidence, and got rid of the prowler once I'd got up and opened the door. He's backed up by our smaller GSD cross who is not quite as tuned-in as him but also has a different bark tones for different circumstances.
I don't know, and don't want to, whether he would actively step in if one of us was threatened. I suspect he would. But equally, the sight of a large dog from a guard breed with his teeth bared, hackles up and barking furiously would deter a lot of people before it got to that.
Another example - a friend also used to have a GSD, again a complete pet with zero security training. Her partner left her with a small baby, and the dog. She would bring him over to the field for exercise, with the baby in the pushchair, and let him run around, throw balls, etc. He was the perfect canine gentleman. But if anyone he didn't know approached the pushchair, he would just calmly, without any fuss, walk over and put himself between that person and the child. No noise, no fuss, just making sure the child was safe.
What's my point? I'm not quite sure! But I think what I'm saying is, if someone doesn't have much dog experience, I'm not sure a highly-trained protection dog is the right thing for them. Similarly, if you know your way around dogs, you can select a suitable breed/pet who'll do the job without all the potential collateral.
Just my 1p-worth. Hope it helps.
I had one who would step between my excitable springer lab cross and my niece when he got over excited.
I now have a gsd cross malamute and she has a wide vocabulary loves the Chinese takeaway man but not so keen on the Indian delivery guy,
As for my neighbours son who is very strange, she would rip him a new one in a second given the chance.
With most people she is friendly but keeps a weary watch until she is sure we are ok with them
The most telling sign I have found with gsd, s if they go very quiet after barking at someone you know they are getting ready to up the deterrence level
I’ll keep it short. English lines GSD, family dog from a pup. Highly trained in general dog etiquette (thanks to my dedicated wife) and highly obedient.
Soppy as a sack but protects the property & the family (including our Boston Terrier when she gets above her station!)
There are probably very few protection dogs in homes compared to non protection dogs so they statistically would be more uncommon.
There was a police dog who savaged a grandmother after the handler was given permission by her to go in her garden. She died from her injuries. Now that is extremely rare due to the high standard of training police dogs have but they obviously aren't infallible.
I have a friend who is a first class dog trainer and was a police dog handler for many years. I would be interested to get his take on this approach of dog ownership. I could always let you know if you want. I trust his opinions.
There was a police dog who savaged a grandmother after the handler was given permission by her to go in her garden. She died from her injuries. Now that is extremely rare due to the high standard of training police dogs have but they obviously aren't infallible.
I have a friend who is a first class dog trainer and was a police dog handler for many years. I would be interested to get his take on this approach of dog ownership. I could always let you know if you want. I trust his opinions.
Deep said:
Hi
I'm looking at purchasing a family protection dog . Usual domestic family set up ie wife and two boys under the age of 13 and my elderly mother.
There are a lot of companies around and the costs are pretty significant. I must say I was quite shocked at just how much but have now got my head around it.
I can't afford to make a mistake both from a financial point of view and also for the potential repercussions for my family.
Could anybody suggest a reputable company?
Thank you.
Deep, apologies if I have missed something, but why do you believe you need a family protection dog? Who do you believe you need to protect your family from?I'm looking at purchasing a family protection dog . Usual domestic family set up ie wife and two boys under the age of 13 and my elderly mother.
There are a lot of companies around and the costs are pretty significant. I must say I was quite shocked at just how much but have now got my head around it.
I can't afford to make a mistake both from a financial point of view and also for the potential repercussions for my family.
Could anybody suggest a reputable company?
Thank you.
OP I guess it is up to you but as someone who has owned and rehomed gsd,s for the last 20 or so years you really do not need to go and pay a small fortune for a "protection" dog.
Get any of the guard breed dogs and you are buying into centuries of specific breeding for just those traits you are looking for in a dog.
Buy a good pup from a recommended breeder or even better rehome one from one of the various breed rescue groups and take it to obedience training and you will not go far wrong.
One of the greatest pleasures from owning any dog in my opinion is building that bond that comes from training , feeding and caring for it.
i have always trained mine to the point of mastering the basics recall,walking to heal sit and stay etc ,i have never taken it further as i like my dogs to retain that spark of mischief and character that makes them a joy to own ( my current dog loves to talk to ice cream vans when they set off the chimes and she takes no notice of me telling her to be quiet).
You also need to consider your experience with dogs as some breeds can be very headstrong and assertive if you have no or very little experience with these types of dog you may be in for a shock as to how difficult and manipulative they can be.
Get any of the guard breed dogs and you are buying into centuries of specific breeding for just those traits you are looking for in a dog.
Buy a good pup from a recommended breeder or even better rehome one from one of the various breed rescue groups and take it to obedience training and you will not go far wrong.
One of the greatest pleasures from owning any dog in my opinion is building that bond that comes from training , feeding and caring for it.
i have always trained mine to the point of mastering the basics recall,walking to heal sit and stay etc ,i have never taken it further as i like my dogs to retain that spark of mischief and character that makes them a joy to own ( my current dog loves to talk to ice cream vans when they set off the chimes and she takes no notice of me telling her to be quiet).
You also need to consider your experience with dogs as some breeds can be very headstrong and assertive if you have no or very little experience with these types of dog you may be in for a shock as to how difficult and manipulative they can be.
Their are a few misconceptions on here around protection dogs. A protection dog will have been temperament tested from a young age to ensure it displays the required traits. A big one being confidence and judgement.
Many dogs will bark, growl, hackles up etc if they are territorial. This often is a deterrent and a dog knows it, it is trying to avoid confrontation by scaring off what it doesnt like. Many dogs will then if pushed, back down. The deterrent failed and they will defer to submission.
The reason confidence is important in a protection dog is you then want it to know what to do next as the threat is still present and not back down. They also are not trained to maul, they will work to physically take the threat to the floor.
Many dogs will bark, growl, hackles up etc if they are territorial. This often is a deterrent and a dog knows it, it is trying to avoid confrontation by scaring off what it doesnt like. Many dogs will then if pushed, back down. The deterrent failed and they will defer to submission.
The reason confidence is important in a protection dog is you then want it to know what to do next as the threat is still present and not back down. They also are not trained to maul, they will work to physically take the threat to the floor.
From a selfish point of view. Do they train these dogs to like vets 
!
Having dealt with police dogs I am aware at just how tricky they can be in a veterinary environment (ie handlers have to be with them when ga'd etc) so what would a protection dog be like?
And yes I know many dogs can be unsure in a vet environment but a dog trained in this way adds another dimension to being careful with them!
!Having dealt with police dogs I am aware at just how tricky they can be in a veterinary environment (ie handlers have to be with them when ga'd etc) so what would a protection dog be like?
And yes I know many dogs can be unsure in a vet environment but a dog trained in this way adds another dimension to being careful with them!
makaveli144 said:
Their are a few misconceptions on here around protection dogs. A protection dog will have been temperament tested from a young age to ensure it displays the required traits. A big one being confidence and judgement.
Many dogs will bark, growl, hackles up etc if they are territorial. This often is a deterrent and a dog knows it, it is trying to avoid confrontation by scaring off what it doesnt like. Many dogs will then if pushed, back down. The deterrent failed and they will defer to submission.
The reason confidence is important in a protection dog is you then want it to know what to do next as the threat is still present and not back down. They also are not trained to maul, they will work to physically take the threat to the floor.
That basically is what I thought, I still don't understand the need for this requirement in a family dog unless you feel you live in an area of high crime etc. Many dogs will bark, growl, hackles up etc if they are territorial. This often is a deterrent and a dog knows it, it is trying to avoid confrontation by scaring off what it doesnt like. Many dogs will then if pushed, back down. The deterrent failed and they will defer to submission.
The reason confidence is important in a protection dog is you then want it to know what to do next as the threat is still present and not back down. They also are not trained to maul, they will work to physically take the threat to the floor.
You also really need to trust the company doing that training I guess! I don't know how you sort out the good from the bad fo something like this.
I would have thought that livestock guarding dogs (LGDs) bred to be independent, outside with large ranges, aggressive and have minimal human contact would not make ideal 'house dogs'.
Perhaps those bred to be much more socialised might be, but I'd be surprised if the working LGDs would be well placed as a house dog with an inexperienced family.
A friend had 2 Newfoundlands, size and the depth/volume of bark they could be terrifying, until you realised the biggest danger was being drowned in drool or suffocated by dropped hair. They were delightful with kids and hilarious when I saw them at the beach once, I'd not want to be the one that had to groom them though.... They both had hip issues when older IIRC
If I had the time (and a live-in groomer/drool cleaner) I'd love a big newfie
Perhaps those bred to be much more socialised might be, but I'd be surprised if the working LGDs would be well placed as a house dog with an inexperienced family.
A friend had 2 Newfoundlands, size and the depth/volume of bark they could be terrifying, until you realised the biggest danger was being drowned in drool or suffocated by dropped hair. They were delightful with kids and hilarious when I saw them at the beach once, I'd not want to be the one that had to groom them though.... They both had hip issues when older IIRC
If I had the time (and a live-in groomer/drool cleaner) I'd love a big newfie
bexVN said:
You also really need to trust the company doing that training I guess! I don't know how you sort out the good from the bad fo something like this.
This would be my biggest concern as it would be so easy to be sucked in by the various "trainers" marketing speel.just who vets these people who select the right temperament in their dogs that they train?
What a dumb thread. There is no such thing as a "protection dog". All these owners that go on about how protective their dog is are completely deluded. Sure, the dog will bark and jump up and down a lot when it hears or something it isn't familiar with, but all a genuine intruder has to do is wave or throw some nice juicy meat at it and they have free rein to do whatever it is they've come to do in your house whilst the dog is preoccupied chomping his/her steak and sausages.
i would question whether you really need a protection dog or just like the idea of a proteciton dog,
as stated anyone determined enough will poison or kill the dog anyway, get a pet and if you feel the need go for a larger breed. Personally i would suggest if you want a dog that will put itself between you and anything get an Akita. fantastically loyal breed that will guard its family above all else.
personally grew up with Rotties having a couple of breeders in the family and never had any less than 2 at home ourselves, they are fantastic family pets but have the stature and status that your looking for. or if you want out and out intimidation just from the appearance get a DdB.
as stated anyone determined enough will poison or kill the dog anyway, get a pet and if you feel the need go for a larger breed. Personally i would suggest if you want a dog that will put itself between you and anything get an Akita. fantastically loyal breed that will guard its family above all else.
personally grew up with Rotties having a couple of breeders in the family and never had any less than 2 at home ourselves, they are fantastic family pets but have the stature and status that your looking for. or if you want out and out intimidation just from the appearance get a DdB.
Lemming Train said:
What a dumb thread. There is no such thing as a "protection dog". All these owners that go on about how protective their dog is are completely deluded. Sure, the dog will bark and jump up and down a lot when it hears or something it isn't familiar with, but all a genuine intruder has to do is wave or throw some nice juicy meat at it and they have free rein to do whatever it is they've come to do in your house whilst the dog is preoccupied chomping his/her steak and sausages.
Nope, he will not eat anything offered or thrown on the floor, even by us, unless absolutely certain.You obviously do not know GSD’s.
Edited by Uncle John on Thursday 22 November 21:58
citizensm1th said:
This would be my biggest concern as it would be so easy to be sucked in by the various "trainers" marketing speel.
just who vets these people who select the right temperament in their dogs that they train?
There are a lot of qualifications and bodies that you would want the trainer to be part of. just who vets these people who select the right temperament in their dogs that they train?
A1K9ltd have some very good videos on YouTube which demonstrates what a protection dog is for. They also have some that demonstrate the dogs in a family/urban environment.
Uncle John said:
Lemming Train said:
What a dumb thread. There is no such thing as a "protection dog". All these owners that go on about how protective their dog is are completely deluded. Sure, the dog will bark and jump up and down a lot when it hears or something it isn't familiar with, but all a genuine intruder has to do is wave or throw some nice juicy meat at it and they have free rein to do whatever it is they've come to do in your house whilst the dog is preoccupied chomping his/her steak and sausages.
Nope, he will not eat anything offered or thrown on the floor, even by us, unless absolutely certain.bexVN said:
There are probably very few protection dogs in homes compared to non protection dogs so they statistically would be more uncommon.
There was a police dog who savaged a grandmother after the handler was given permission by her to go in her garden. She died from her injuries. Now that is extremely rare due to the high standard of training police dogs have but they obviously aren't infallible.
I have a friend who is a first class dog trainer and was a police dog handler for many years. I would be interested to get his take on this approach of dog ownership. I could always let you know if you want. I trust his opinions.
Many many moons ago Scotland fans were travelling south to Wembley on the M1. I happened to be letting my dog stretch his legs at the service station and he was on a lead. The police were trying to shift the fans onto any transport available to move them southwards and their gsd was walking in front of them, off the lead. Obviously it had to investigate my dog and that's when the fight started. It was a totally avoidable situation and they only got my dog to let go by whippng it with their leash. When the metal end whipped round my dogs muzzle it really hurt and he let go. This was supposedly a trained police dog, however drive instincts are always under the surface.There was a police dog who savaged a grandmother after the handler was given permission by her to go in her garden. She died from her injuries. Now that is extremely rare due to the high standard of training police dogs have but they obviously aren't infallible.
I have a friend who is a first class dog trainer and was a police dog handler for many years. I would be interested to get his take on this approach of dog ownership. I could always let you know if you want. I trust his opinions.
wsurfa said:
I would have thought that livestock guarding dogs (LGDs) bred to be independent, outside with large ranges, aggressive and have minimal human contact would not make ideal 'house dogs'.
Perhaps those bred to be much more socialised might be, but I'd be surprised if the working LGDs would be well placed as a house dog with an inexperienced family.
A friend had 2 Newfoundlands, size and the depth/volume of bark they could be terrifying, until you realised the biggest danger was being drowned in drool or suffocated by dropped hair. They were delightful with kids and hilarious when I saw them at the beach once, I'd not want to be the one that had to groom them though.... They both had hip issues when older IIRC
If I had the time (and a live-in groomer/drool cleaner) I'd love a big newfie
A long long time ago i used to work for youngs in london, and on one occasion i was doing a holiday relief in The bunch of grapes just next to london bridge station.Perhaps those bred to be much more socialised might be, but I'd be surprised if the working LGDs would be well placed as a house dog with an inexperienced family.
A friend had 2 Newfoundlands, size and the depth/volume of bark they could be terrifying, until you realised the biggest danger was being drowned in drool or suffocated by dropped hair. They were delightful with kids and hilarious when I saw them at the beach once, I'd not want to be the one that had to groom them though.... They both had hip issues when older IIRC
If I had the time (and a live-in groomer/drool cleaner) I'd love a big newfie
The landlord at the time had two bull mastiffs who he took on holiday with him, one night i heard a sound down stairs in the bar after closing time and being young and stupid i thought i would take a look.
Half way down the stairs i was confronted by these two massive beasties one of which proceeded to pin me to the wall by placing his two front paws on my shoulders , the landlord had returned from holiday a day early and muttley decided i was not supposed to be in his pub.
Apart from not being able to move (you would not believe the power of a big male bull mastiff) the worst thing that happened to me was a huge big slobbery lick.
Sod all i know to do with the thread but every time i think about it it makes me chuckle
Lemming Train said:
What a dumb thread. There is no such thing as a "protection dog". All these owners that go on about how protective their dog is are completely deluded. Sure, the dog will bark and jump up and down a lot when it hears or something it isn't familiar with, but all a genuine intruder has to do is wave or throw some nice juicy meat at it and they have free rein to do whatever it is they've come to do in your house whilst the dog is preoccupied chomping his/her steak and sausages.
This is a dangerously misguided comment.
Try giving him a sausage if his Handler doesnt want you to and you will not be in a very nice place.
Lemming Train said:
Uncle John said:
Lemming Train said:
What a dumb thread. There is no such thing as a "protection dog". All these owners that go on about how protective their dog is are completely deluded. Sure, the dog will bark and jump up and down a lot when it hears or something it isn't familiar with, but all a genuine intruder has to do is wave or throw some nice juicy meat at it and they have free rein to do whatever it is they've come to do in your house whilst the dog is preoccupied chomping his/her steak and sausages.
Nope, he will not eat anything offered or thrown on the floor, even by us, unless absolutely certain.I imagine him going into kennels would have been an issue, but since he went everywhere with them or other family I don't think that arose.
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