Should unhealthy dogs be banned?
Poll: Should unhealthy dogs be banned?
Total Members Polled: 83
Discussion
I find the attraction to flat faced dogs somewhat odd. People sympathise with humans that are deformed, such as the Elephant man, but I don’t think many think they look better than normal.
Yet so many dog owners clearly do find something attractive about pugs and the like, even though objectively they have been deliberately bred to be deformed. I think perhaps the flat face makes them look a little like human babies and that is why some people find them cute.
I find it hard to forget an article I read by a senior vet about how he presents his first year students with an x ray of a pug’s head and asks for comments. Many assume that it shows a dog that has been run over or suffered a similar fate.
I’ve seen a fair number of such dogs whilst out walking mine. It distresses me to hear their laboured breathing as they run around.
Personally I would like to see such dogs banned as it seems unnecessary animal cruelty to keep breeding them. There are lots of cute and loveable small dogs available that we haven’t cursed with poor health.
An alternative approach would be to breed out such characteristics but not sure how that would work and as there are plenty of dogs already with normal snouts I’m not sure of the point (plus there would be a lot of suffering of different generations until the snout was more dog like again).
Yet so many dog owners clearly do find something attractive about pugs and the like, even though objectively they have been deliberately bred to be deformed. I think perhaps the flat face makes them look a little like human babies and that is why some people find them cute.
I find it hard to forget an article I read by a senior vet about how he presents his first year students with an x ray of a pug’s head and asks for comments. Many assume that it shows a dog that has been run over or suffered a similar fate.
I’ve seen a fair number of such dogs whilst out walking mine. It distresses me to hear their laboured breathing as they run around.
Personally I would like to see such dogs banned as it seems unnecessary animal cruelty to keep breeding them. There are lots of cute and loveable small dogs available that we haven’t cursed with poor health.
An alternative approach would be to breed out such characteristics but not sure how that would work and as there are plenty of dogs already with normal snouts I’m not sure of the point (plus there would be a lot of suffering of different generations until the snout was more dog like again).
You have posted about this before, so we know your opinion.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
How do you decide and/or who decides what is 'unhealthy'?
You have a particular issue with brachycephalic dogs, but there are plenty of other breeds which (through selective breeding) are susceptible to certain medical conditions - labradors (hip dysplasia/eye issues), dachshunds (back issues), west highland white terriers (skin problems), collies (epilepsy), greyhounds (bone cancer), deerhounds (liver shunt), cocker spaniels (ear/eye issues).
Where do you start/end?
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
How do you decide and/or who decides what is 'unhealthy'?
You have a particular issue with brachycephalic dogs, but there are plenty of other breeds which (through selective breeding) are susceptible to certain medical conditions - labradors (hip dysplasia/eye issues), dachshunds (back issues), west highland white terriers (skin problems), collies (epilepsy), greyhounds (bone cancer), deerhounds (liver shunt), cocker spaniels (ear/eye issues).
Where do you start/end?
moorx said:
You have posted about this before, so we know your opinion.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
How do you decide and/or who decides what is 'unhealthy'?
You have a particular issue with brachycephalic dogs, but there are plenty of other breeds which (through selective breeding) are susceptible to certain medical conditions - labradors (hip dysplasia/eye issues), dachshunds (back issues), west highland white terriers (skin problems), collies (epilepsy), greyhounds (bone cancer), deerhounds (liver shunt), cocker spaniels (ear/eye issues).
Where do you start/end?
I know I’ve addressed the topic before but wanted to start a poll to gauge opinion. https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
How do you decide and/or who decides what is 'unhealthy'?
You have a particular issue with brachycephalic dogs, but there are plenty of other breeds which (through selective breeding) are susceptible to certain medical conditions - labradors (hip dysplasia/eye issues), dachshunds (back issues), west highland white terriers (skin problems), collies (epilepsy), greyhounds (bone cancer), deerhounds (liver shunt), cocker spaniels (ear/eye issues).
Where do you start/end?
Flat faced dogs have health issues because we have bred them that way. Similarly German Shepherds have hip problems because people think the sloping back stance looks good. Those are the types of problems I think should be resolved by banning or breeding.
Health issues that have arisen coincidentally because of inbreeding but not because we have selected for specific features are probably best dealt with by only breeding from dogs that don’t display the problems or possibly crossbreeding.
Esceptico said:
I find the attraction to flat faced dogs somewhat odd. People sympathise with humans that are deformed, such as the Elephant man, but I don’t think many think they look better than normal.
Yet so many dog owners clearly do find something attractive about pugs and the like, even though objectively they have been deliberately bred to be deformed. I think perhaps the flat face makes them look a little like human babies and that is why some people find them cute.
I find it hard to forget an article I read by a senior vet about how he presents his first year students with an x ray of a pug’s head and asks for comments. Many assume that it shows a dog that has been run over or suffered a similar fate.
I’ve seen a fair number of such dogs whilst out walking mine. It distresses me to hear their laboured breathing as they run around.
Personally I would like to see such dogs banned as it seems unnecessary animal cruelty to keep breeding them. There are lots of cute and loveable small dogs available that we haven’t cursed with poor health.
An alternative approach would be to breed out such characteristics but not sure how that would work and as there are plenty of dogs already with normal snouts I’m not sure of the point (plus there would be a lot of suffering of different generations until the snout was more dog like again).
What a bore you are.Yet so many dog owners clearly do find something attractive about pugs and the like, even though objectively they have been deliberately bred to be deformed. I think perhaps the flat face makes them look a little like human babies and that is why some people find them cute.
I find it hard to forget an article I read by a senior vet about how he presents his first year students with an x ray of a pug’s head and asks for comments. Many assume that it shows a dog that has been run over or suffered a similar fate.
I’ve seen a fair number of such dogs whilst out walking mine. It distresses me to hear their laboured breathing as they run around.
Personally I would like to see such dogs banned as it seems unnecessary animal cruelty to keep breeding them. There are lots of cute and loveable small dogs available that we haven’t cursed with poor health.
An alternative approach would be to breed out such characteristics but not sure how that would work and as there are plenty of dogs already with normal snouts I’m not sure of the point (plus there would be a lot of suffering of different generations until the snout was more dog like again).
Bet your a barrel of laughs down at the pub.
My step-son lost his beloved pug just over a year ago. Brian, the pug, was 13 years old when he died from a liver issue. The entire family loved him and we took every precaution to ensure that his lovely flat face caused him as few issues as possible. As a family, we can understand that some people would prefer that pugs and French bulldogs were either outlawed or alternatively, bred to remove some of the flat face issues. However, we would also have another pug, not only for the way they look, but also due to their personality.
Now here is the interesting thing. When I retired almost 3 years ago, we made the decision to get a dog. We were going to have a rescue pug, but as luck would have it, we ended up with a puppy, Owain, who is a pug/French bulldog cross. This might have seemed like a bad thing, but our vet loves him because, despite both parents being flat faced, Owain has a good snout and consequently, few issues with breathing. I can understand people wanting to prevent unnecessary suffering, but this is a massive issue, with many sides to consider.
Now here is the interesting thing. When I retired almost 3 years ago, we made the decision to get a dog. We were going to have a rescue pug, but as luck would have it, we ended up with a puppy, Owain, who is a pug/French bulldog cross. This might have seemed like a bad thing, but our vet loves him because, despite both parents being flat faced, Owain has a good snout and consequently, few issues with breathing. I can understand people wanting to prevent unnecessary suffering, but this is a massive issue, with many sides to consider.
Evoluzione said:
Should unhealthy people be banned?
I think we're talking about selectively breeding with the intention of promoting particular 'aesthetic' at the expense of good health.If such a practice existed for humans then yes, I would be fully supportive of a ban.
FWIW, I do agree with banning the breeding of brachycephalic dogs, which I believe has already happened in some countries. Can't see the appeal of wanting a disabled pet.
Edited by billbring on Saturday 30th April 22:19
billbring said:
Can't see the appeal of wanting a disabled pet.
agreed but, you how perverse people are, they'll walk past a healthy beast to fall in love with the ugly dog, wonky eyed cat, featherless parakeet, 3 legged pig. Edited by billbring on Saturday 30th April 22:19
i don't know, maybe we overthink things concerning our pets , is the breathless
flat faced dog or cat aware of it's excessive panting, or does it know nothing else and
is happy being alive, loved and having its belly rubbed ?
Whats on Second said:
billbring said:
Can't see the appeal of wanting a disabled pet.
agreed but, you how perverse people are, they'll walk past a healthy beast to fall in love with the ugly dog, wonky eyed cat, featherless parakeet, 3 legged pig. Edited by billbring on Saturday 30th April 22:19
i don't know, maybe we overthink things concerning our pets , is the breathless
flat faced dog or cat aware of it's excessive panting, or does it know nothing else and
is happy being alive, loved and having its belly rubbed ?
There is a difference between how we treat dogs that have already been born and those we choose to bring into being. It is compassionate to look after a disabled animal that exists but cruel to deliberately breed disabled animals.
Most parents of disabled children love them yet I doubt many actively aimed to have disabled children or wouldn’t have the disability removed, if that were possible.
Edited by Esceptico on Saturday 30th April 23:21
Aside from the issue of policing any such ban not all dogs are created equal.
Full disclosure we have 2 pugs, I wanted a ridgeback so you can see who wears the trousers in our house. We met both sets of parents, they were slim and had no breathing issues, our dogs are now 8 years old and still no breathing difficulties. Last year they went up Snowdon with us, something that a considerable number of humans seemed to be struggling with. Ours will gladly walk for 10 miles, sleep for the rest of the day and then be up for the same again the following day. As such to describe them as unhealthy is factually incorrect and they do not suffer but there was no guarantee of that when we chose them. Do I think people should be breeding flat faced dogs, hmm not really no, do I think we should ban them also no because then where do you stop? You could easily argue that we should ban pretty much all pure breeds because most have genetic health issues.
What should be actively encouraged is responsible breeding and responsible ownership, meet the breeder, the parents, establish any the chance of any negative health traits and then act like a decent human being. The problem with that idea of course is that the like of French bulldogs in particular command huge prices so the market encourages scummy behaviour.
TLDR: own pugs, don’t really support the continued breeding of them despite loving our healthy and happy dogs, banning things is rarely the answer.
Full disclosure we have 2 pugs, I wanted a ridgeback so you can see who wears the trousers in our house. We met both sets of parents, they were slim and had no breathing issues, our dogs are now 8 years old and still no breathing difficulties. Last year they went up Snowdon with us, something that a considerable number of humans seemed to be struggling with. Ours will gladly walk for 10 miles, sleep for the rest of the day and then be up for the same again the following day. As such to describe them as unhealthy is factually incorrect and they do not suffer but there was no guarantee of that when we chose them. Do I think people should be breeding flat faced dogs, hmm not really no, do I think we should ban them also no because then where do you stop? You could easily argue that we should ban pretty much all pure breeds because most have genetic health issues.
What should be actively encouraged is responsible breeding and responsible ownership, meet the breeder, the parents, establish any the chance of any negative health traits and then act like a decent human being. The problem with that idea of course is that the like of French bulldogs in particular command huge prices so the market encourages scummy behaviour.
TLDR: own pugs, don’t really support the continued breeding of them despite loving our healthy and happy dogs, banning things is rarely the answer.
Esceptico said:
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Flat faced dogs have health issues because we have bred them that way. Similarly German Shepherds have hip problems because people think the sloping back stance looks good. Those are the types of problems I think should be resolved by banning or breeding.
I tend to agree. Does The Kennel Club/Crufts allow these dogs into their competitions? A bar from those be a start.Flat faced dogs have health issues because we have bred them that way. Similarly German Shepherds have hip problems because people think the sloping back stance looks good. Those are the types of problems I think should be resolved by banning or breeding.
No.
What needs to happen is for the public to stop buying any old puppy and looking instead at ensuring the breeder they use has been responsible in bringing their pups into the world.
It's a big thing with the breed of my two, the Cane Corso. When I got my first one nearly 5yrs ago they were quite hard to get hold of in the UK, so the few breeders that did exist then were pretty much all doing their job properly - health checking the parents before even thinking of putting them together. Corso are susceptible to eyelid entropy & hip/elbow dysplasia so having the dog x-rayed for hip & elbow scores was just the done thing.
Now however it seems there are hundreds of "breeders" who are clearly in it mostly for the money and not the bettering of the breed. They bang on about "champion bloodlines" and "great temperament" and that's about all they seem to care about. Mention hip scores and they'll usually fib and say they've been tested but if you ask to see the paperwork low and behold it won't be forthcoming. And yet Joe Public just doesn't seem to give a f
k, and then wonder why their dog is unhealthy and needs ££££s spent on operations.
If everyone was more responsible/informed when it comes to buying a puppy then the bad breeders would just cease to exist. As if they can't sell the puppies, unless at a joke cheap price, then the financial gain is removed and they either up their games and breed properly or just stop doing it.
What needs to happen is for the public to stop buying any old puppy and looking instead at ensuring the breeder they use has been responsible in bringing their pups into the world.
It's a big thing with the breed of my two, the Cane Corso. When I got my first one nearly 5yrs ago they were quite hard to get hold of in the UK, so the few breeders that did exist then were pretty much all doing their job properly - health checking the parents before even thinking of putting them together. Corso are susceptible to eyelid entropy & hip/elbow dysplasia so having the dog x-rayed for hip & elbow scores was just the done thing.
Now however it seems there are hundreds of "breeders" who are clearly in it mostly for the money and not the bettering of the breed. They bang on about "champion bloodlines" and "great temperament" and that's about all they seem to care about. Mention hip scores and they'll usually fib and say they've been tested but if you ask to see the paperwork low and behold it won't be forthcoming. And yet Joe Public just doesn't seem to give a f
k, and then wonder why their dog is unhealthy and needs ££££s spent on operations. If everyone was more responsible/informed when it comes to buying a puppy then the bad breeders would just cease to exist. As if they can't sell the puppies, unless at a joke cheap price, then the financial gain is removed and they either up their games and breed properly or just stop doing it.
Esceptico said:
We can’t ask breathless dogs but you can ask people with breathing difficulties. My MIL had severe asthma (she died of a lung infection at just 60). Did she like her life? Yes. Did she suffer a lot because of the asthma and would she have done anything to be free of it? Also yes. Although dogs can’t talk I suspect the answer would be similar.
There is a difference between how we treat dogs that have already been born and those we choose to bring into being. It is compassionate to look after a disabled animal that exists but cruel to deliberately breed disabled animals.
Most parents of disabled children love them yet I doubt many actively aimed to have disabled children or wouldn’t have the disability removed, if that were possible.
Not sure where you're going with this...There is a difference between how we treat dogs that have already been born and those we choose to bring into being. It is compassionate to look after a disabled animal that exists but cruel to deliberately breed disabled animals.
Most parents of disabled children love them yet I doubt many actively aimed to have disabled children or wouldn’t have the disability removed, if that were possible.
Edited by Esceptico on Saturday 30th April 23:21
Regarding 'flat faced' dogs', are there any of those in the wild ie: that happened naturally?
If not then breeding for that characteristic just places thousands of dogs at risk for the sake of cuteness.
Lots of other dogs are bred with inherent issues and the Kennel Club should be ashamed for encouraging some traits.
If not then breeding for that characteristic just places thousands of dogs at risk for the sake of cuteness.
Lots of other dogs are bred with inherent issues and the Kennel Club should be ashamed for encouraging some traits.
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