Should unhealthy dogs be banned?
Poll: Should unhealthy dogs be banned?
Total Members Polled: 83
Discussion
popeyewhite said:
I tend to agree. Does The Kennel Club/Crufts allow these dogs into their competitions? A bar from those be a start.
Of course they do. You can’t have genetic purity without an underlying acceptance or even encouragement of the continued breeding of animals known to have health defects. KC and Crufts would argue otherwise but they’re telling porkies. djc206 said:
popeyewhite said:
I tend to agree. Does The Kennel Club/Crufts allow these dogs into their competitions? A bar from those be a start.
Of course they do. You can’t have genetic purity without an underlying acceptance or even encouragement of the continued breeding of animals known to have health defects. KC and Crufts would argue otherwise but they’re telling porkies. popeyewhite said:
I'd argue otherwise as well. Why anyone would keep a dog in the knowledge it's suffering/going to suffer is beyond me. My guess these types of dogs won't be around for much longer. Their bred-for-pets looks are unnatural and a fad that's gone on too long.
Could that argument not be made for pretty much every common breed?There is no legal way of banning this sort of thing (in essence you’d be banning dogs from shagging, which is hard). The only possible way starts with organisations like the Kennel Club, but they don’t seem to give a s
t about dog health, so nothing will happen.
In an ideal world, you’d have a kennel club that banned in breeding and had a breed standard that was healthy. Then you could legally say that registered breeders had to be members of that scheme, and everyone else could be assumed to be a puppy farm. That would shut down the “oooooh, no one told me that this dog from Gumtree came from a puppy farm” crew.
We’re considering a litter of pups from our GSD bh. Mainly because she’s such a fantastic dog at obedience and agility - so she should be, with a pedigree like hers. We’re going though all the hip scoring and screening now. The problem is the price of puppies, apparently they are going for up to three grand, which makes me deeply suspicious of what people want to do with them. I’d rather sell them for a few hundred quid and have them live a happy life on a big farm or similar.
t about dog health, so nothing will happen.In an ideal world, you’d have a kennel club that banned in breeding and had a breed standard that was healthy. Then you could legally say that registered breeders had to be members of that scheme, and everyone else could be assumed to be a puppy farm. That would shut down the “oooooh, no one told me that this dog from Gumtree came from a puppy farm” crew.
We’re considering a litter of pups from our GSD b
h. Mainly because she’s such a fantastic dog at obedience and agility - so she should be, with a pedigree like hers. We’re going though all the hip scoring and screening now. The problem is the price of puppies, apparently they are going for up to three grand, which makes me deeply suspicious of what people want to do with them. I’d rather sell them for a few hundred quid and have them live a happy life on a big farm or similar.Esceptico said:
I find the attraction to flat faced dogs somewhat odd. People sympathise with humans that are deformed, such as the Elephant man, but I don’t think many think they look better than normal.
Yet so many dog owners clearly do find something attractive about pugs and the like, even though objectively they have been deliberately bred to be deformed. I think perhaps the flat face makes them look a little like human babies and that is why some people find them cute.
I find it hard to forget an article I read by a senior vet about how he presents his first year students with an x ray of a pug’s head and asks for comments. Many assume that it shows a dog that has been run over or suffered a similar fate.
I’ve seen a fair number of such dogs whilst out walking mine. It distresses me to hear their laboured breathing as they run around.
Personally I would like to see such dogs banned as it seems unnecessary animal cruelty to keep breeding them. There are lots of cute and loveable small dogs available that we haven’t cursed with poor health.
An alternative approach would be to breed out such characteristics but not sure how that would work and as there are plenty of dogs already with normal snouts I’m not sure of the point (plus there would be a lot of suffering of different generations until the snout was more dog like again).
How many have you owned?Yet so many dog owners clearly do find something attractive about pugs and the like, even though objectively they have been deliberately bred to be deformed. I think perhaps the flat face makes them look a little like human babies and that is why some people find them cute.
I find it hard to forget an article I read by a senior vet about how he presents his first year students with an x ray of a pug’s head and asks for comments. Many assume that it shows a dog that has been run over or suffered a similar fate.
I’ve seen a fair number of such dogs whilst out walking mine. It distresses me to hear their laboured breathing as they run around.
Personally I would like to see such dogs banned as it seems unnecessary animal cruelty to keep breeding them. There are lots of cute and loveable small dogs available that we haven’t cursed with poor health.
An alternative approach would be to breed out such characteristics but not sure how that would work and as there are plenty of dogs already with normal snouts I’m not sure of the point (plus there would be a lot of suffering of different generations until the snout was more dog like again).
I’ve got two Frenchies, never had an issue with either of them (one has a dodgy heart but hardly a breed specific issue), you don’t take them out for walks in the heat, much like myself.
Stop letting any idiot breed them would be a good start, banning the dog breed would just move the idiots to a different breed.
Losing this style of dogs, companion dogs, would be a massive shame they are brilliant little creatures, amazing temperaments and well suited to a sedentary lifestyle which I guess is linked to their physical attributes.
I agree they need to do something, but banning them isn’t the answer.
ETA to the uninformed idiot above, Frenchies have been around since the Industrial revolution, so only 200 years or so … hardly a fad.
Back yard breeding, nrc colours, breed fads etc. These cause the issues. Good breeders health test their brachy dogs before producing litters to ensure a good outcome. Keeping their weight down and a good level of exercise and healthy diet do wonders for these dogs. Often they are bought by people who dont understand this enough and contribute to a lifestyle that isn’t optimum for the breed.
Those that want the tri colours, Merle etc will only get these from irresponsible breeders who are after the big money that follows these colours. They are out-bred to bring the colour patterns in and a huge amount of other problems with it. The dog is bought and needs a fortune spending on it that they can’t afford or don’t want to. So they in turn breed it for money etc. Or, if lucky, surrenders to a rescue that has to spend the money to give the poor thing some quality of life and, hopefully, a new home that won’t treat them as a cash cow.
In case you can’t tell, I have an English bulldog and work with a bulldog rescue. We have an average of 40 dogs a month through our doors.
Those that want the tri colours, Merle etc will only get these from irresponsible breeders who are after the big money that follows these colours. They are out-bred to bring the colour patterns in and a huge amount of other problems with it. The dog is bought and needs a fortune spending on it that they can’t afford or don’t want to. So they in turn breed it for money etc. Or, if lucky, surrenders to a rescue that has to spend the money to give the poor thing some quality of life and, hopefully, a new home that won’t treat them as a cash cow.
In case you can’t tell, I have an English bulldog and work with a bulldog rescue. We have an average of 40 dogs a month through our doors.
Han Solo said:
ETA to the uninformed idiot above, Frenchies have been around since the Industrial revolution, so only 200 years or so … hardly a fad.
Fad is probably the wrong word but a 3000%+ increase in popularity over a decade would suggest they’re in vogue. Pugs achieved massive popularity starting around 2013 and that’s dropped off quite a bit now, the same will happen with Frenchies eventually. My prediction based on the current trend is for dachshund’s to overtake frenchies in popularity soon, they’re not shy of a health problem or two either.Queen Victoria had pugs and their history in Europe goes as far back as the 16th Century and their history in China for a lot longer than that. They’re not a modern invention either. That doesn’t excuse modern breeding practices of course.
Edited by djc206 on Tuesday 3rd May 22:48
Han Solo said:
ETA to the uninformed idiot above, Frenchies have been around since the Industrial revolution, so only 200 years or so … hardly a fad.
Assuming your comment is directed at me for using the term 'fad', I think I'm quite correct. Dogs have been domesticated for 20,000 years and it's only very recently on that scale people have owned dogs with potentially serious health issues cause by human interference in their breeding. The figure is something like 50% of these genetically mutated flat-faced dogs will experience breathing problems.Truthfully you should be ashamed of yourself for seeming to defend this situation.20,000 years? What percentage as pets and what percentage as working animals / tools?
Source for 50%? 3000% increase?
Doesn’t correspond with my experience over the past 8 years.
Well if you read my post I’m not defending it, clearly state something needs to be done.
Banning them isn’t the answer.
Controlling the breeders, owners, ensuring health checks are carried out on the proposed parents of any litter, ensure huge costs involved in breeding these dogs which move people to other breeds and ensure healthier next generations that do not have any health issues as a direct consequence of selective feature breeding.
How many have you owned?
I’ve got the family tree, each parents health check / reports, known / hereditary issues identified in the direct family tree (none).
I did my due diligence to ensure I bought a healthy dog from a healthy family.
Source for 50%? 3000% increase?
Doesn’t correspond with my experience over the past 8 years.
Well if you read my post I’m not defending it, clearly state something needs to be done.
Banning them isn’t the answer.
Controlling the breeders, owners, ensuring health checks are carried out on the proposed parents of any litter, ensure huge costs involved in breeding these dogs which move people to other breeds and ensure healthier next generations that do not have any health issues as a direct consequence of selective feature breeding.
How many have you owned?
I’ve got the family tree, each parents health check / reports, known / hereditary issues identified in the direct family tree (none).
I did my due diligence to ensure I bought a healthy dog from a healthy family.
Han Solo said:
20,000 years? What percentage as pets and what percentage as working animals / tools?
Source for 50%? 3000% increase?
Doesn’t correspond with my experience over the past 8 years.
Well if you read my post I’m not defending it, clearly state something needs to be done.
Banning them isn’t the answer.
Controlling the breeders, owners, ensuring health checks are carried out on the proposed parents of any litter, ensure huge costs involved in breeding these dogs which move people to other breeds and ensure healthier next generations that do not have any health issues as a direct consequence of selective feature breeding.
How many have you owned?
I’ve got the family tree, each parents health check / reports, known / hereditary issues identified in the direct family tree (none).
I did my due diligence to ensure I bought a healthy dog from a healthy family.
3000% source, it’s actually from 2018 so that was over the decade to that point I guessSource for 50%? 3000% increase?
Doesn’t correspond with my experience over the past 8 years.
Well if you read my post I’m not defending it, clearly state something needs to be done.
Banning them isn’t the answer.
Controlling the breeders, owners, ensuring health checks are carried out on the proposed parents of any litter, ensure huge costs involved in breeding these dogs which move people to other breeds and ensure healthier next generations that do not have any health issues as a direct consequence of selective feature breeding.
How many have you owned?
I’ve got the family tree, each parents health check / reports, known / hereditary issues identified in the direct family tree (none).
I did my due diligence to ensure I bought a healthy dog from a healthy family.
here’s a graphic of most popular dogs
It wasn’t me who suggested that brachycephalic dogs have such a high rate of breathing problems but it is true. “Research published in the Journal of Veterinary Internal Medicine found that a massive 66% of French Bulldogs have breathing problems”. Like I said we have two pugs so I’m not having a pop but you can’t argue with reality. I agree with you about responsible breeding.
So are we banning German Shepherds because of their hip issues or is it to be bread out ?
Plenty of dog breed issues out their or is this just an anti-Bulldog/Pug thing ?
How about banning Terriers because they've been bred to be nasty little beeps, which is of course unhealthy to themselves and others.
Plenty of dog breed issues out their or is this just an anti-Bulldog/Pug thing ?
How about banning Terriers because they've been bred to be nasty little beeps, which is of course unhealthy to themselves and others.
so called said:
So are we banning German Shepherds because of their hip issues or is it to be bread out ?
Plenty of dog breed issues out their or is this just an anti-Bulldog/Pug thing ?
How about banning Terriers because they've been bred to be nasty little beeps, which is of course unhealthy to themselves and others.
I made that point but it wasn’t really answered. We should all as dog lovers arguably have cross breeds. Few breeds healthier than a mutt!Plenty of dog breed issues out their or is this just an anti-Bulldog/Pug thing ?
How about banning Terriers because they've been bred to be nasty little beeps, which is of course unhealthy to themselves and others.
djc206 said:
As a consequence of breeding?
As a consequence of anything. I know you're not endorsing animal cruelty but what exactly is your point? That inbred physical suffering is acceptable in some way that beating a dog with a stick isn't?djc206 said:
In which case we’re banning pretty much every domesticated breed then. Cool.
Don't be silly, you're over exaggerating wildly.popeyewhite said:
djc206 said:
As a consequence of breeding?
As a consequence of anything. I know you're not endorsing animal cruelty but what exactly is your point? That inbred physical suffering is acceptable in some way that beating a dog with a stick isn't?djc206 said:
In which case we’re banning pretty much every domesticated breed then. Cool.
Don't be silly, you're over exaggerating wildly.popeyewhite said:
Esceptico said:
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Flat faced dogs have health issues because we have bred them that way. Similarly German Shepherds have hip problems because people think the sloping back stance looks good. Those are the types of problems I think should be resolved by banning or breeding.
I tend to agree. Does The Kennel Club/Crufts allow these dogs into their competitions? A bar from those be a start.Flat faced dogs have health issues because we have bred them that way. Similarly German Shepherds have hip problems because people think the sloping back stance looks good. Those are the types of problems I think should be resolved by banning or breeding.
Change them and the dogs change.
so called said:
So are we banning German Shepherds because of their hip issues or is it to be bread out ?
Plenty of dog breed issues out their or is this just an anti-Bulldog/Pug thing ?
How about banning Terriers because they've been bred to be nasty little beeps, which is of course unhealthy to themselves and others.
Rather than banning German Shepherds, I’d rather buyers were educated as to the pitfalls of buying a dodgy one. If the demand goes, then the poor quality breeding will go. I really have no sympathy for people who have a dog that is knackered at a young age because they bought the bloody thing from an ad on Gumtree. I have a lot of sympathy for the dog. Plenty of dog breed issues out their or is this just an anti-Bulldog/Pug thing ?
How about banning Terriers because they've been bred to be nasty little beeps, which is of course unhealthy to themselves and others.
As an example, our 12 year old GSD does not have arthritis to any appreciable degree. She’s had cancer, and it’s a toss up at the moment whether she will die of it, or die of old age. She still runs (ok, not very fast), climb stairs and tries to dig up rabbit holes. She’s got a pedigree as long as your arm, we did a lot of research before getting her as a pup. A friend bought a GSD pup at about the same time as we got ours. A genuine friend, intelligent bloke etc, but ….. Gumtree. The dog was on strong painkillers at 4, and was dead of liver failure at 6. Lovely dog, just awful breeding.
rxe said:
Rather than banning German Shepherds, I’d rather buyers were educated as to the pitfalls of buying a dodgy one. If the demand goes, then the poor quality breeding will go. I really have no sympathy for people who have a dog that is knackered at a young age because they bought the bloody thing from an ad on Gumtree. I have a lot of sympathy for the dog.
As an example, our 12 year old GSD does not have arthritis to any appreciable degree. She’s had cancer, and it’s a toss up at the moment whether she will die of it, or die of old age. She still runs (ok, not very fast), climb stairs and tries to dig up rabbit holes. She’s got a pedigree as long as your arm, we did a lot of research before getting her as a pup. A friend bought a GSD pup at about the same time as we got ours. A genuine friend, intelligent bloke etc, but ….. Gumtree. The dog was on strong painkillers at 4, and was dead of liver failure at 6. Lovely dog, just awful breeding.
If you look up pictures of GSD from a century ago they had normal backs, being parallel to the ground, not the odd sloping stance that the dog showing types like. Presumably it wouldn’t be too difficult to selectively breed for a normal back, which I think would help with the hip problems. As an example, our 12 year old GSD does not have arthritis to any appreciable degree. She’s had cancer, and it’s a toss up at the moment whether she will die of it, or die of old age. She still runs (ok, not very fast), climb stairs and tries to dig up rabbit holes. She’s got a pedigree as long as your arm, we did a lot of research before getting her as a pup. A friend bought a GSD pup at about the same time as we got ours. A genuine friend, intelligent bloke etc, but ….. Gumtree. The dog was on strong painkillers at 4, and was dead of liver failure at 6. Lovely dog, just awful breeding.
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