Premium Economy v Business?

Premium Economy v Business?

Author
Discussion

StevieBee

12,795 posts

254 months

Monday 20th August 2018
quotequote all
OP: Your concern for the financial health of your employer is admirable and commendable.

However, the justification for Business Class is the simple fact that you are more rapidly an effective, fully functional human being far quicker upon your arrival and return. The net gain to your employer is thus positive.

I travel a lot and rarely a distance that requires anything other than economy but last week, I had to go to Jakarta for four days - both out and back at the back of the plane. Not so bad going but coming back I was at 50% for at least three days. Four if I'm honest. Having done similar at the front of the plane, I'm good to go the day I step out of the airport.




Grandad Gaz

5,090 posts

245 months

Monday 20th August 2018
quotequote all
Well, I'm currently looking at flights to New Zealand for a holiday and to be honest, I can not justify spending over 4K per person for flight only, in business class.
That works out over 6K extra for two people, which is a fair old chunk of the budget!

Air New Zealand do an economy "skycouch" which is not horrendously more expensive. Does anyone have experience of them?

Thanks

djc206

12,247 posts

124 months

Monday 20th August 2018
quotequote all
Grandad Gaz said:
Well, I'm currently looking at flights to New Zealand for a holiday and to be honest, I can not justify spending over 4K per person for flight only, in business class.
That works out over 6K extra for two people, which is a fair old chunk of the budget!

Air New Zealand do an economy "skycouch" which is not horrendously more expensive. Does anyone have experience of them?

Thanks
If you can be bothered going there first look from Stockholm, Oslo or Amsterdam, ex EU can be way cheaper.

Alternatively wait for the Qatar airways sale, they did London to NZ for ~£1500 in business last year.

WyrleyD

1,883 posts

147 months

Monday 20th August 2018
quotequote all
Grandad Gaz said:
Well, I'm currently looking at flights to New Zealand for a holiday and to be honest, I can not justify spending over 4K per person for flight only, in business class.
That works out over 6K extra for two people, which is a fair old chunk of the budget!

Air New Zealand do an economy "skycouch" which is not horrendously more expensive. Does anyone have experience of them?

Thanks
We have been to NZ every year for the last 5 years (out around 20th Jan and back around 10h Apr) and always travel business class, the first flight was with Emirates and the subsequent flights have all been Cathay Pacific, we have never paid more than €3.2k each (the most expensive trip was when we couldn't be flexible on dates). The first trip was from London Heathrow and all subsequent trips have been via Paris Charles De Gaulle where the Cathay business lounge is superb. I don't think we are going in 2019 as it's dependent on the house sale but the next trip we will be trying out QATAR airways from whichever European city is the cheapest at the time, when I last looked the flight from Oslo to Auckland via Doha was working out around £2600. I have also looked at flights that go via Zurich and Singapore (SWISS/Singapore Airlines) and Frankfurt and Singapore (Lufthansa/Singapore Airlines) and they were working out at around £2800.

Do some research using ITA Matrix or Google Flights to get some ideas around what you can get but you will find that using UK as your departure point greatly increases the cost in most cases that's why I'll never do that again, I just don't like paying the huge departure tax or navigating the Heathrow hell-hole.

Edit: This came in on my email this morning:

https://loyaltylobby.com/2018/08/19/airfare-of-the...


Edited by WyrleyD on Tuesday 21st August 06:40

Grandad Gaz

5,090 posts

245 months

Tuesday 21st August 2018
quotequote all
WyrleyD said:
Grandad Gaz said:
Well, I'm currently looking at flights to New Zealand for a holiday and to be honest, I can not justify spending over 4K per person for flight only, in business class.
That works out over 6K extra for two people, which is a fair old chunk of the budget!

Air New Zealand do an economy "skycouch" which is not horrendously more expensive. Does anyone have experience of them?

Thanks
We have been to NZ every year for the last 5 years (out around 20th Jan and back around 10h Apr) and always travel business class, the first flight was with Emirates and the subsequent flights have all been Cathay Pacific, we have never paid more than €3.2k each (the most expensive trip was when we couldn't be flexible on dates). The first trip was from London Heathrow and all subsequent trips have been via Paris Charles De Gaulle where the Cathay business lounge is superb. I don't think we are going in 2019 as it's dependent on the house sale but the next trip we will be trying out QATAR airways from whichever European city is the cheapest at the time, when I last looked the flight from Oslo to Auckland via Doha was working out around £2600. I have also looked at flights that go via Zurich and Singapore (SWISS/Singapore Airlines) and Frankfurt and Singapore (Lufthansa/Singapore Airlines) and they were working out at around £2800.

Do some research using ITA Matrix or Google Flights to get some ideas around what you can get but you will find that using UK as your departure point greatly increases the cost in most cases that's why I'll never do that again, I just don't like paying the huge departure tax or navigating the Heathrow hell-hole.

Edit: This came in on my email this morning:

https://loyaltylobby.com/2018/08/19/airfare-of-the...


Edited by WyrleyD on Tuesday 21st August 06:40
Thanks for that, very interesting! Last time I flew to NZ was in 1999 where we slummed it in economy with Cathy Pacific smile

How do you get to Oslo then? Presumably you fly there and overnight somewhere near the airport?

GT03ROB

13,210 posts

220 months

Tuesday 21st August 2018
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Coin Slot. said:
Fair play to anybody that has to fly more than once a year, I hate it from beginning to end, not quite terrified but it's much like going to a dentist for a root filling..
It's really not that bad..... 36 flights so far this year which is not much compared to many... the right combination of airline & lounge cards together with mostly business class makes it no great hassle, rarely needing to come into contact with the bucket & spade mob.

Puggit

48,355 posts

247 months

Tuesday 21st August 2018
quotequote all
Grandad Gaz said:
Thanks for that, very interesting! Last time I flew to NZ was in 1999 where we slummed it in economy with Cathy Pacific smile

How do you get to Oslo then? Presumably you fly there and overnight somewhere near the airport?
Try and get same day flights - nothing is cheap near Oslo!

Also be aware that Oslo Gardemoen (the main airport) is many miles north of the city, while cheap flights go to Sandejford - which is even further south!

blueg33

35,589 posts

223 months

Tuesday 21st August 2018
quotequote all
Its worth phoning BA to see what first would cost (don't use the web). When I have done this on flights to Thalland, first was cheaper than business online.. Business was full first was nearly empty. This actually works best if yu book economy and get an upgrade cost over the phone.

Best example of this was a couple of years ago. Booked economy LHR to Bangkok for family of four. Price to upgrade to business for the 4 of us was just over £10k, price to upgrade to first was just under £8k.

louiebaby

10,651 posts

190 months

Tuesday 21st August 2018
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irocfan

40,153 posts

189 months

Tuesday 21st August 2018
quotequote all
tvrolet said:
I'm presuming the OP hasn't flown business lately? It's like a drug. I used to have 2 or 3 trips to the US each year business and/or pleasure and was happy to put up with economy. Then I got an upgrade to premium on one flight and suddenly I had 'enough' space - my knees weren't pressing on the seat in front, if the guy in front reclined it didn't put his seat back right under my nose. And from that point on I never flew economy again, even when I was paying.

Then I got an upgrade to business. I never thought it was possible to sleep on a flight, but on a lie-flat bed you certainly can. Yes, the food is better, yes the service is better...but it's being able to sleep properly on a flat bed that makes a world of difference. So now on long haul I (and the wife) only fly business class; if we can't afford it, we don't go. From my perspective it gives you back. a day or two to any trip. In the days of premium economy we'd always expect 'lose' the arrival day of any vacation, and most of the next too since we'd be totally knackered and jet-lagged from the journey. On business we arrive well-rested and 'ready to go' - the holiday starts as soon as we get through arrivals! We're off to LA again next week, and we've all sorts planned for the day of arrival; if' we'd booked PE or economy all we'd be planning to do would be to check in to a hotel and sleep.

Even on business, I was working in South Africa for a while and the company offered PE. I refused, and in the end they agreed I could go Qatar on business, which was near as dammit the same cost - except a longer journey and transfer in Doha. The chap I was working with chose the direct PE option arriving on Sunday mornings and spend the whole day in bed recovering (even on the same time-zone as he'd had sod-all sleep). I arrived fit as the proverbial fiddle and ready to go, despite spending much longer in the air (and time in Doha) having ate well, drunk well, and had a good night's sleep.

It's not just the comfort in the flight you need to look at, but what state you're going to be in at the far end. Once you realise you can actually step off a long haul flight feeling just fine, it's difficult to contemplate the alternative of sitting primarily upright in a seat for 14 hours or whatever.
I'm sort of with you here - cheap scum seats for me I'm afraid not being a powerfully built etc etc. In fairness I never got out feeling like I couldn't do anything but last time to Orlando Virgin supplied me with the worst seats I've ever had - I got out feeling like I'd gone 10 rounds with Giant Haystacks. On the way back we decided to spring for PE and it really was chalk and cheese and, IMO, worth the extra. Part of me really doesn't want to try BC or 1st since I could happily become used to that

schmalex

13,616 posts

205 months

Tuesday 21st August 2018
quotequote all
Emirates business is pretty good although it’s starting to age a bit now. Their First offering on the A380 is excellent, though. Although, I wouldn’t pay for it. I’ve manahed to get to the heady heights of Emirates Platinum this year. Not sure how it’ll help as being Gold for the last 3 years has done sod all!!!

Qatar is fantastic if you can get a newly fitted Q Suite. If two of you are flying, they can convert the two centre seats into a double suite.

The only downside with Qatar is you often have to a bus from the plane to be terminal. Also, the showers in the lounge can get very busy at time (I always head to the far left set near the restaurant as they are generally a bit quieter).

BA, in comparison, is utterly woeful nowadays. I only ever fly them when going West and have to do my 4 sectors to keep Gold as I earn all my points from Qatar flights.

pushthebutton

1,096 posts

181 months

Tuesday 21st August 2018
quotequote all
schmalex said:
BA, in comparison, is utterly woeful nowadays. I only ever fly them when going West and have to do my 4 sectors to keep Gold as I earn all my points from Qatar flights.
I'll bite, yes I work for them.

BA can't compete with the Middle East due to state subsidies, favourable fees from state regulators, more restrictive employment law, APD, pension provision etc etc.

The phrase 'utterly woeful' implies to me that BA couldn't compete given a level playing field; of course they could. They could design an equally impressive seat; improve inflight catering; improve the lounge experience and operate like the BA of old, but they're hamstrung by operating on the UK register, employing mainly UK-based crew into predominantly expensive U.K. airfields.

There are reports that the wheels are coming off of the ME3 business model. There are numerous reports of grounded aircraft due to employees leaving at the first sign of an upturn in their home market. Money is becoming tighter as competitors are forced to cut prices to an, IMO, unsustainable level in order to compete.

Qatar Airlines Substantial Loss:

https://www.forbes.com/consent/?toURL=https://www....

Emirates Grounded Aircraft:

http://gulfbusiness.com/emirates-grounds-20-planes...

the word from those with feet on the ground is that the problem is much worse, but it's being masked to help bolster stakeholder confidence.

Etihad Financial Issues:

https://www.forbes.com/consent/?toURL=https://www....

It may all blow over, but the emergence of these carriers has forced most First World carriers to cut costs, firstly in order to survive and secondly in order to compete. It appears to be working. I'm sure each one of these carriers has the ability to innovate, but it's made that much harder by the regulatory framework they work within.

Finally, just because I want to:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jul/29/a...

Qatar Airways 'Think Long and Hard'

https://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/509397-qat...

Etihad made PPRUNE remove all threads pertaining to their operations, mainly revolving around pilot working conditions, under the threat of comprehensive legal action against the site's owners 9standby for delete in 5...4...3). No results appear on Google either, which is strange given that feedback from pilots operating there is less than rosy.

...but, you know, the seats are nice wink

captain_cynic

11,874 posts

94 months

Tuesday 21st August 2018
quotequote all
pushthebutton said:
I'll bite, yes I work for them.

BA can't compete with the Middle East due to state subsidies, favourable fees from state regulators, more restrictive employment law, APD, pension provision etc etc.
You haven't understood what we mean by compete.

We know that BA and European airlines cant compete on price with ME airlines, we want them to compete on service and stop this race to the bottom. If I want to fly to the Americas I've got the choice of crappy European airlines and crappy American airlines. I cant choose a better airline that costs £50-100 more like I can in Australia where I can choose Singapore. Not because I wont pay, but because no such option exists.

WyrleyD

1,883 posts

147 months

Tuesday 21st August 2018
quotequote all
Grandad Gaz said:
Thanks for that, very interesting! Last time I flew to NZ was in 1999 where we slummed it in economy with Cathy Pacific smile

How do you get to Oslo then? Presumably you fly there and overnight somewhere near the airport?
Flight into Oslo by BA or Scandinavian airlines then overnight as part of the holiday. We've been from Paris the last four times and you can get there by BA, EasyJet or Eurostar train via Lille and have done the train and also driven and parked in an off site covered long term car park ( but that was a very costly way of doing it!!).

pushthebutton

1,096 posts

181 months

Tuesday 21st August 2018
quotequote all
captain_cynic said:
You haven't understood what we mean by compete.

We know that BA and European airlines cant compete on price with ME airlines, we want them to compete on service and stop this race to the bottom. If I want to fly to the Americas I've got the choice of crappy European airlines and crappy American airlines. I cant choose a better airline that costs £50-100 more like I can in Australia where I can choose Singapore. Not because I wont pay, but because no such option exists.
I did understand, but I probably wasn't clear enough.

Like-for-like, BA and the others are already more expensive than the ME3. The recent cost cutting, mostly to the detriment of the employees - but there was a spell where it was to the detriment of the customer - has helped BA to get closer to, but not beat, the ME3. An additional £10 to improve the economy food offering per passenger increased proportionately per cabin will contribute to a ticket price that becomes unpalatable to regular and seasonal travelers and provide more justification to their decision to transit via the Middle East. Improve the offering in the Lounges, improve the seating (and potentially reduce the seat count) and the price divergence reaches a point where the revenue generation department have indicated, through market research, will follow the law of diminishing returns.

The swingeing changes to employee Ts&Cs, outsourcing and cost cutting have resulted in significant improvements to the above. A new Club seat is coming along with new aircraft deliveries. Improved food, drink and bedding offerings have been introduced across routes and the older 747s, which are remaining in service, have had a cabin refit which includes the new Panasonic(?) IFE system.

All of the above are improvements that allows BA to stay relevant and hope to compete with the ME3, although they are standing still relatively. If, as I posted above, the wheels are starting to come off of their business model, then there's the possibility that the ME3 will be entering a downturn at the same time that BA and the others are experiencing a resurgence.

It'll never happen though as that would point to the aviation market being cyclical. biggrin


Edited by pushthebutton on Tuesday 21st August 16:11

schmalex

13,616 posts

205 months

Tuesday 21st August 2018
quotequote all
captain_cynic said:
You haven't understood what we mean by compete.

We know that BA and European airlines cant compete on price with ME airlines, we want them to compete on service and stop this race to the bottom. If I want to fly to the Americas I've got the choice of crappy European airlines and crappy American airlines. I cant choose a better airline that costs £50-100 more like I can in Australia where I can choose Singapore. Not because I wont pay, but because no such option exists.
Exactly. I’m looking to fly down to Hyderabad in the next couple of weeks for a business meeting.

I can either travel with any one of the ME3 and have a reasonably comfortable seat, plenty of space and good service, or BA and sit in a dreary, grey cabin watching an awful selection of movies on a tiny, fuzzy screen while staring into the eyes of the Yang passenger whenever one of us puts the divider down.

Regarding price, this trip will be:

BA: £4,090
EK: £1,849
QR: £2,518
EY: £1,907

So. Not only do BA have an old and really quite inferior hard product, they are over twice the price of the ME3. Whilst I totally get that they their business model is different, i can’t justify a £2k+ price difference to fly them as I have to spread my budget as thinly as possible to do all the travel I need for the year. A couple of hundred pounds, fine, but a couple of £k is too much. We spend close to £1m p.a on travel for the 20 or so of us in our business who have an international remit

Sadly, as has been said, air travel is a price-led market which, sadly, sees major carriers like BA charging for sarnies on board as people want the lowest possible price. Unfortunately, as we live in a global market, that also applies to premium cabins as well and BA need to either become more price competitive or change the game on service and comfort as they did all those years ago with Club World to remain relevant.

Having said all that, the Club World cabin on the 9pm from YYZ to LHR is always absolutely rammed so people are still spending plenty with BA




Edited by schmalex on Tuesday 21st August 16:17

captain_cynic

11,874 posts

94 months

Tuesday 21st August 2018
quotequote all
pushthebutton said:
I did understand, but I probably wasn't clear enough.

Like-for-like, BA and the others are already more expensive than the ME3
I don't think you understood my post at all. Prices ignored, I don't think the airlines are like for like at all.

I'd like to pay a little bit more to get better service. Not simply food, what I want are more comfortable seats, no advertising, having the old battle axe stewardesses sent for sensitivity training, the ability to fix a typo in my name on a ticket without being charged a fee and a fee for paying the fee. Seat selection and baggage included.

Who flies across the Atlantic with an 18" wide seat in standard economy? Its not like I can fly an Asian or ME airline on that route without going at least 8 hours in the wrong direction.

Instead what we got was a race to the bottom which ultimately is unsustainable. Smaller seats, less leg room, worse planes, fees for just about everything, getting "nickeled and dimed" for everything.

Premium economy is far too much for what it is and you're still getting crappy after sales service and fees up the trumpet.

As other posters have alluded to, the IAG airlines should change their slogan to "We don't care, we don't have to care, what are you going to do about it"

pushthebutton

1,096 posts

181 months

Tuesday 21st August 2018
quotequote all
captain_cynic said:
I don't think you understood my post at all. Prices ignored, I don't think the airlines are like for like at all.
I wasn't saying that the airlines are like for like. I was saying that, if BA improved their offering to a point where it was a like for like offering then the resulting price increase would prove too unpalatable to its regular customers and hence they'd accept the added inconvenience of transiting via the Middle East. I could use the 'have not understood' phrase once again, but it's becoming tiresome wink

captain_cynic said:
I'd like to pay a little bit more to get better service. Not simply food, what I want are more comfortable seats, no advertising, having the old battle axe stewardesses sent for sensitivity training, the ability to fix a typo in my name on a ticket without being charged a fee and a fee for paying the fee. Seat selection and baggage included.
How much is bit more? Are you representative of the regular BA traveler or a twice a year holiday maker? Fitting more comfortable seats could result in fewer seats being fitted across the aircraft - that results in lost revenue - multiply that by every sector that single aircraft flies each year and then by the fleet as a whole.

What advertising are you shown? I travel regularly on BA and can't recall anything specific. There's the charity video and the safety demo, but I'd struggle to categorise that as advertising. How many 'old battleaxe stewardesses are there? What proportion if the BA Cabin Crew are from the legacy fleets? I see very few battleaxes, if any, and I like to think that I'm fairly objective.

BA's ticket name change policy:

https://www.britishairways.com/travel/askbainter/p...

...no charge.

Seat selection and baggage are included with the appropriate fare class. BA passengers asked for hand baggage only fares and so they were introduced. Seat selection is free at departure -24 hours. Before that you can pay to select or have free selection if you are a status card holder or have paid for a certain type of fare. I guess you could call it rewarding loyalty?

captain_cynic said:
Who flies across the Atlantic with an 18" wide seat in standard economy? Its not like I can fly an Asian or ME airline on that route without going at least 8 hours in the wrong direction.
That's kinda the point. That is a selling point, it's an advantage that a business will exploit. Here's a link to the seat width of some airlines:

https://www.seatguru.com/charts/longhaul_economy.p...

I note Emirates have 17" in their economy seats (against the 18" you mentioned) on their B777, which they regularly use to cross the Atlantic..FROM DUBAI! It also uses them to fly from the U.K to Dubai which has a longer flight time than many BA destinations on the Eastern seaboard of the U.S.A.

captain_cynic said:
Instead what we got was a race to the bottom which ultimately is unsustainable. Smaller seats, less leg room, worse planes, fees for just about everything, getting "nickeled and dimed" for everything.
No argument there. That's exactly why the European aviation industry is littered with the carcases of airlines who were unable or unwilling to adapt. The U.S Majors continue to exist, in no small part, due to the protections of Chapter 11. Airlines are reacting to the demands of the customer, cheaper fares, they aren't leading the charge.

What do you mean by worse planes? BA have A380s, B777s, B787s, A350s arriving imminently, A320 NEOs and a potential B77X order to be announced if you believe the rumours

captain_cynic said:
Premium economy is far too much for what it is and you're still getting crappy after sales service and fees up the trumpet.

As other posters have alluded to, the IAG airlines should change their slogan to "We don't care, we don't have to care, what are you going to do about it"
It feels like your post is from the year 2000. I guess I need to check the date of the thread before I hit submit, just in case I'm facilitating a Batman-esque thread resurrection.

Edited by pushthebutton on Tuesday 21st August 20:23

pushthebutton

1,096 posts

181 months

Tuesday 21st August 2018
quotequote all
schmalex said:
Exactly. I’m looking to fly down to Hyderabad in the next couple of weeks for a business meeting.

I can either travel with any one of the ME3 and have a reasonably comfortable seat, plenty of space and good service, or BA and sit in a dreary, grey cabin watching an awful selection of movies on a tiny, fuzzy screen while staring into the eyes of the Yang passenger whenever one of us puts the divider down.

Regarding price, this trip will be:

BA: £4,090
EK: £1,849
QR: £2,518
EY: £1,907

So. Not only do BA have an old and really quite inferior hard product, they are over twice the price of the ME3. Whilst I totally get that they their business model is different, i can’t justify a £2k+ price difference to fly them as I have to spread my budget as thinly as possible to do all the travel I need for the year. A couple of hundred pounds, fine, but a couple of £k is too much. We spend close to £1m p.a on travel for the 20 or so of us in our business who have an international remit

Sadly, as has been said, air travel is a price-led market which, sadly, sees major carriers like BA charging for sarnies on board as people want the lowest possible price. Unfortunately, as we live in a global market, that also applies to premium cabins as well and BA need to either become more price competitive or change the game on service and comfort as they did all those years ago with Club World to remain relevant.

Having said all that, the Club World cabin on the 9pm from YYZ to LHR is always absolutely rammed so people are still spending plenty with BA


Edited by schmalex on Tuesday 21st August 16:17
Hyderabad is on the B787 so it will have the newer IFE. How long is your total journey time from LHR to HYD? Should there be a premium associated in reducing that? I don't believe the issue is that BA's business model is different, the issue is that it has to play by a different set of rules that cost a lot more money and that, unfortunately, adds to their bottom line. There's no escaping that fact IMO. How long before the departure date did you look at those prices? I'd hazard a guess that the reason BA's ticket price is substantially higher is that the flight is fairly full, it's direct and the revenue generation department are doing their jobs.

Buy on Board is shorthaul only. If you travel Club Europe then food is provided both in the lounge and on board. The food offering in shorthaul wasn't very good and wasn't widely utilised and so it made sense for them, as a business, to remove it and offer a higher quality buy on board offering from M&S. Granted, ticket prices weren't reduced to reflect the removal of inflight catering, but BA are competing on SH with the likes of Easyjet, Ryanair, Wizzair, Norweigan et al. All have been started from scratch with a much lower cost base - and by circumventing local employment law in some cases - which is reflected in their ticket prices. They all offer, I believe, the option to buy on board and I think sometimes, it may be their only source revenue to ensure they make money on the flight as the ticket price just covers the taxes (hence the 'advertising').

BA are becoming more price competitive or at least they are standing still with regard to the introduction of low cost longhaul (Norweigan). They've revamped the Club World soft product leading up to the introduction of the new Club Cabin, they have a lot of new aircraft with many more on order. They are financially more stable as a result of the cost cutting and are now in the reinvestment phase of the cycle. What remains to be seen is whether the ME3s business model is sustainable as a result on the increased competition.

type

pushthebutton

1,096 posts

181 months

Tuesday 21st August 2018
quotequote all
I'll attempt to stop posting now as I'm contributing to thread derailment, but if someone's wrong on the internet...

getmecoat

Edited by pushthebutton on Tuesday 21st August 19:53