"There is no heaven; it's a fairy story"
Discussion
Ok, so forget prior to the big bang, consider immediatly after, and the intervening years (15billion) or whatever...
From pure energy and mass a universe evolved, bound together, layer upon layer, like a sand castle, by an simple yet elegant set of rules and forces, to eventually give rise to planets, bound together by a simple set of rules and elegant forces.
Given this evolution and the necessary probability of me being able to understand it, at least to a macro level, wouldn't you conceed you're anti theist not atheist?
From pure energy and mass a universe evolved, bound together, layer upon layer, like a sand castle, by an simple yet elegant set of rules and forces, to eventually give rise to planets, bound together by a simple set of rules and elegant forces.
Given this evolution and the necessary probability of me being able to understand it, at least to a macro level, wouldn't you conceed you're anti theist not atheist?
mattnunn said:
Ok, so forget prior to the big bang, consider immediatly after, and the intervening years (15billion) or whatever...
From pure energy and mass a universe evolved, bound together, layer upon layer, like a sand castle, by an simple yet elegant set of rules and forces, to eventually give rise to planets, bound together by a simple set of rules and elegant forces.
Given this evolution and the necessary probability of me being able to understand it, at least to a macro level, wouldn't you conceed you're anti theist not atheist?
Anti-theist, and atheist are not mutually exclusive. Am I anti-theist when it comes to Aunt Bessie From pure energy and mass a universe evolved, bound together, layer upon layer, like a sand castle, by an simple yet elegant set of rules and forces, to eventually give rise to planets, bound together by a simple set of rules and elegant forces.
Given this evolution and the necessary probability of me being able to understand it, at least to a macro level, wouldn't you conceed you're anti theist not atheist?
I do not agree with your question anyway. What YOU understand about the cosmos, the rulesin that cosmos, and the things that are here as a result of those rules, has no bearing whatsoever on me being an atheist, anti-theist, or anything in between.
bikemonster said:
Strangely Brown said:
Why is it that all religious types insist that there is only one god yet profess to believe in the bible? The bible clearly makes reference to other gods, even to the point that God himself mentions them.
And the truly interesting thing is that the god of the OT makes it clear that the other gods are every bit as real as he is. 
So where did these other gods come from then? Did YHWHYWHYWWH make them? Were they also there all along?
Or was it a mattnunnian case of as soon as somebody believed in them they sprang into being? (There's a Terry Pratchett novel based on pretty much this premise.)
The Bible is clear there is One true God, however in existence are other im pretty sure even in the Duet passage it mentions, false God's, idols they worship, the Golden Calf in Ex 32 for example, it was an idol a God to the people, they worshipped as if it were the calf that saved them from Egypt not God.
Where did they come from, are they not merely of human imagination? Human desire for something other than the true God, we have it all the time, I want to believe in this because it satisfy's my needs or sits most comfortably with how I view life.
Only One God, yet lots of things that take the form of "God's in our life, as we give them our time and our worship.
Quote an interesting video about the origins of the Jewish God. Well worth watching all the way to the end.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlnnWbkMlbg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlnnWbkMlbg
NobleGuy said:
Having the same amount of evidence for two things doesn't necessarily make them equally likely to be true.
Absolutely, you have to apply probability, and reason. That is why we know that the tooth fairy is pretty much odds on to be a FIFA,ent of our imagination, as well as Ra, Thor, etc. why do you think God is outside of this bracket of improbability?NobleGuy said:
carmonk said:
There are billions of other 'things' that are just as likely as your god and my hydra and the evidence for any one of them is zero.
Having the same amount of evidence for two things doesn't necessarily make them equally likely to be true.Boydie88 said:
Religious argument... There must have been a start point in which everything started, therefore God created it.
...Who/what created God then? How did God come to exist?
Good luck with that....Who/what created God then? How did God come to exist?
You'll probably get a boatload of verbose sophistry that boils down to "er, dunno".
CommanderJameson said:
Boydie88 said:
Religious argument... There must have been a start point in which everything started, therefore God created it.
...Who/what created God then? How did God come to exist?
Good luck with that....Who/what created God then? How did God come to exist?
You'll probably get a boatload of verbose sophistry that boils down to "er, dunno".
CommanderJameson said:
NobleGuy said:
Rubbish. A magic hydra that requires no matter isn't a hydra at all. Like I said some pages back it's something else, but it isn't a hydra. If you're saying it's something a bit more God-like then I'd tend to agree because when carmonk says "magic hydra" he is in fact simply replacing the term "a God of some kind" with that phrase... Keep up.
How do you know that a magic hydra requires no matter? It's magic. The whole point of deities is that they're magic. If they weren't magic, they wouldn't be deities. You can't be "a bit more godlike". It's like being a "a bit more pregnant".If god isn't matter but it can affect and create matter, then how does that work? Magic, that's how.
Like a cosmic Paul Daniels.
NobleGuy said:
CommanderJameson said:
NobleGuy said:
Rubbish. A magic hydra that requires no matter isn't a hydra at all. Like I said some pages back it's something else, but it isn't a hydra. If you're saying it's something a bit more God-like then I'd tend to agree because when carmonk says "magic hydra" he is in fact simply replacing the term "a God of some kind" with that phrase... Keep up.
How do you know that a magic hydra requires no matter? It's magic. The whole point of deities is that they're magic. If they weren't magic, they wouldn't be deities. You can't be "a bit more godlike". It's like being a "a bit more pregnant".If god isn't matter but it can affect and create matter, then how does that work? Magic, that's how.
Like a cosmic Paul Daniels.
Re-read. Your thing and his thing are the same, and arguing that a magic thing needs to be made of matter is pointless, because his thing is an illustration of the point that it's just a made up thing, because his thing and your thing are the same, and he pulled his out of his arse yesterday.
carmonk said:
NobleGuy said:
carmonk said:
There are billions of other 'things' that are just as likely as your god and my hydra and the evidence for any one of them is zero.
Having the same amount of evidence for two things doesn't necessarily make them equally likely to be true.Like I said pages back, this entire thread is full of people who have to be right no matter what...
Gow3r said:
Oh dear oh dear.
The Bible is clear there is One true God, however in existence are other im pretty sure even in the Duet passage it mentions, false God's, idols they worship, the Golden Calf in Ex 32 for example, it was an idol a God to the people, they worshipped as if it were the calf that saved them from Egypt not God.
Where did they come from, are they not merely of human imagination? Human desire for something other than the true God, we have it all the time, I want to believe in this because it satisfy's my needs or sits most comfortably with how I view life.
Only One God, yet lots of things that take the form of "God's in our life, as we give them our time and our worship.
You're putting a very modern spin on it.The Bible is clear there is One true God, however in existence are other im pretty sure even in the Duet passage it mentions, false God's, idols they worship, the Golden Calf in Ex 32 for example, it was an idol a God to the people, they worshipped as if it were the calf that saved them from Egypt not God.
Where did they come from, are they not merely of human imagination? Human desire for something other than the true God, we have it all the time, I want to believe in this because it satisfy's my needs or sits most comfortably with how I view life.
Only One God, yet lots of things that take the form of "God's in our life, as we give them our time and our worship.
Go back and re-read the OT. The whole thing, not just the bits that support your view of your religion.
You will find thinly veiled excuses for fleecing the populace, genocide, misogyny, ignorance, treachery and deceit. And that's from the supposed good guys.
CommanderJameson said:
NobleGuy said:
CommanderJameson said:
NobleGuy said:
Rubbish. A magic hydra that requires no matter isn't a hydra at all. Like I said some pages back it's something else, but it isn't a hydra. If you're saying it's something a bit more God-like then I'd tend to agree because when carmonk says "magic hydra" he is in fact simply replacing the term "a God of some kind" with that phrase... Keep up.
How do you know that a magic hydra requires no matter? It's magic. The whole point of deities is that they're magic. If they weren't magic, they wouldn't be deities. You can't be "a bit more godlike". It's like being a "a bit more pregnant".If god isn't matter but it can affect and create matter, then how does that work? Magic, that's how.
Like a cosmic Paul Daniels.
Re-read. Your thing and his thing are the same, and arguing that a magic thing needs to be made of matter is pointless, because his thing is an illustration of the point that it's just a made up thing, because his thing and your thing are the same, and he pulled his out of his arse yesterday.
My whole point was that carmonk is a p***k. Do you not understand this yet...?
bikemonster said:
Gow3r said:
Oh dear oh dear.
The Bible is clear there is One true God, however in existence are other im pretty sure even in the Duet passage it mentions, false God's, idols they worship, the Golden Calf in Ex 32 for example, it was an idol a God to the people, they worshipped as if it were the calf that saved them from Egypt not God.
Where did they come from, are they not merely of human imagination? Human desire for something other than the true God, we have it all the time, I want to believe in this because it satisfy's my needs or sits most comfortably with how I view life.
Only One God, yet lots of things that take the form of "God's in our life, as we give them our time and our worship.
You're putting a very modern spin on it.The Bible is clear there is One true God, however in existence are other im pretty sure even in the Duet passage it mentions, false God's, idols they worship, the Golden Calf in Ex 32 for example, it was an idol a God to the people, they worshipped as if it were the calf that saved them from Egypt not God.
Where did they come from, are they not merely of human imagination? Human desire for something other than the true God, we have it all the time, I want to believe in this because it satisfy's my needs or sits most comfortably with how I view life.
Only One God, yet lots of things that take the form of "God's in our life, as we give them our time and our worship.
Go back and re-read the OT. The whole thing, not just the bits that support your view of your religion.
You will find thinly veiled excuses for fleecing the populace, genocide, misogyny, ignorance, treachery and deceit. And that's from the supposed good guys.
And I dont need you to tell me to re-read the OT, as I believe the whole of the Bible is the word of God not just the bits and pieces that are often quoted, it is you guys as I read through this thread that misquote one off verses to support your arguments instead of understanding the bigger picture.
How is it a modern spin? All humanity has ever done is live to serve number one, I see no reason to say this was not the case back when the Bible was written, especially when you read accounts of Baal worship, or Egypt worshipped this frog headed God Heket, etc, it was all the rage
NobleGuy said:
You are agreeing you moron. My point from the beginning was that "magic hydra" and "wicker buffalo" aren't as likely as God to be a creator unless carmonk is using those terms to mean "something God-like", in which case he's using unnecessarily derogatory terms to belittle the beliefs of others (which I always knew to be the case).
My whole point was that carmonk is a p***k. Do you not understand this yet...?
Reported.My whole point was that carmonk is a p***k. Do you not understand this yet...?
Gow3r said:
I am not looking for thinly veiled excuses, I am pretty sure the Bible is blatant, for example with Joshua, this is the land promised to you, remove the opposition and those who serve false Gods and idols (kill them all) yes I read that..
And I dont need you to tell me to re-read the OT, as I believe the whole of the Bible is the word of God not just the bits and pieces that are often quoted, it is you guys as I read through this thread that misquote one off verses to support your arguments instead of understanding the bigger picture.
How is it a modern spin? All humanity has ever done is live to serve number one, I see no reason to say this was not the case back when the Bible was written, especially when you read accounts of Baal worship, or Egypt worshipped this frog headed God Heket, etc, it was all the rage
What is the bigger picture?And I dont need you to tell me to re-read the OT, as I believe the whole of the Bible is the word of God not just the bits and pieces that are often quoted, it is you guys as I read through this thread that misquote one off verses to support your arguments instead of understanding the bigger picture.
How is it a modern spin? All humanity has ever done is live to serve number one, I see no reason to say this was not the case back when the Bible was written, especially when you read accounts of Baal worship, or Egypt worshipped this frog headed God Heket, etc, it was all the rage
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