Patriotism

Author
Discussion

mat777

Original Poster:

10,360 posts

159 months

Sunday 6th May 2012
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What is wrong with some people? How is is possible to be so misguided? This is a conversation with my best friend on msn earlier, since coming to uni he has gone centre-left to socialist, and I have gone centre-right to UKIP. I dont want to lose my best friend, but fk me he comes out with some loopy st these days....

ME: I even painted a union jack on my bike earlier

HIM: fk OFF YOU PATRIOTIC

ME: ?????
are you saying im not even allowed to be proud of the monarchy any more?????

HIM: you know i am really surprised that you arent a fundamentalist christian sometimes, you would fit right in

ME: oh for gods sake, are you seriously suggesting that anyone celebrating 60 years of the ruling monarch is a BNP fascist?
if you are, then fk right off now

HIM: no, im saying supporting a monarchy is far past the time, what is there to be proud of? answer me that

ME: you know what, im not even going to have this discussion

HIM: its like being proud of a dictator

ME: if you cant say you support the monarchy them im not even going to botther talking to you about it

HIM: BECAUSE YOU CANT ANSWER IT
why are you proud of the monarchy

ME: yes
as should all proper british people be

HIM: and why would i support the monarchy?
WHY ARE YOU PROUD OF THE MONARCHY

ME: do you simply stand for the desturction and eradication of EVERY last facet of traditional british core values?

HIM: yes, traditions are fking ridiculous. christianity and religions are a tradition, they should be eliminated

ME: oh my god im talking to a revlutionary nutcase
why dont you sod off to cuba, youd like it there

HIM: no, WHY ARE YOU fkING PROUD OF THE MONARCHY, WHAT MAKES YOU PROUD OF THEM AND SUPPORT THEM? YOU ARE WORSE THAN A POLITITION
  • politician
ME: because i am proud of my country, and its traditions and way of life, and any radical marxist who wants to change it has to come through me

HIM: that isnt a reason, WHY ARE YOU PROUD OF THE MONARCHY
fine, i will kill you then

ME: you stand for the continuing wholesale destruction of the identity of a once-proud world leading country into the PC socialist cesspit it has become today

HIM: you seriously think you are in the majority here. most people couldnt give a st about the monarchy anymore. or at least most people of our generation. you are the odd one out, the nutcase, old fashioned, and living in the past

ME: oh dear oh dear

HIM: so i call you what you call me and you go "oh dear oh dear"

ME: im sorry, but if you cant value and be proud of the heritage of our country then there is no hope for you

HIM: im being properly serious here, why is there no hope for me?

ME: you know what, forget it

HIM: you know what you are the tt here, you arnt fascist. FINE. but you live by such stupid idiotic out of date rules that im surprised im still friends with you

ME: i bet you are going to be one of the fruitcakes putting on anti-monarchy demonstrations during the jubilee weekend
if you are, then i hope you get lynched

HIM: fk me, i really dont know why you are so mental over me being anti patriotic and against the monarchy. its not a radical thing. 99% of the people i know are on my side here. other than you, one of my mates here and possibly **** ****. noone gives a st about monarchy

TheHeretic

73,668 posts

254 months

Sunday 6th May 2012
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Nationalism and patriotism are very off stances, to me anyway. You are proud of something you never did, for reasons you never had any say in. Someone said "patriotism is the belief that a country is superior because you were born in it" or words to that effect.

It's pointless. By all means be proud of your personal feelings about issues, etc, but nationalism, and patriotism for the sake of it seems dumb.

davepoth

29,395 posts

198 months

Sunday 6th May 2012
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Sad. Really, really sad. frown

What you could have done was ask him what he would replace the monarchy with, and then when he says an elected president, tell him how much that would cost, both in terms of elections and salaries, and in lost tourist revenue.

The monarchy is a pragmatic compromise; the democratic deficit is rather obvious, but having a completely non-partisan head of state is good for the country; They don't wield any real power that could be abused by affiliation to special interests, as tends to happen in countries that have an elected president.

Such backward nations as Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Japan, Belgium and the Netherlands have a very similar system to us and I don't think people bemoan them as examples of feudal servitude.

-edit-

Thinking about it, he might just be angry because there's no way that he can be Queen. wink

qooqiiu

750 posts

196 months

Sunday 6th May 2012
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I am a proud monarchist.

I am happy being a 2nd class human being, who must bow before her.

You 1st class fool!

Edited by qooqiiu on Sunday 6th May 23:11

collateral

7,238 posts

217 months

Sunday 6th May 2012
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I don't see a correlation between the flag and the monarchy

NiceCupOfTea

25,280 posts

250 months

Sunday 6th May 2012
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It's like reading YouTube comments!

Hoofy

76,253 posts

281 months

Sunday 6th May 2012
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240p, we meet again.

Carthage

4,261 posts

143 months

Sunday 6th May 2012
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At uni?
Hopefully you will both develop slightly more sophisticated/articulate debating skills before you leave. tongue out

EarlOfHazard

3,601 posts

157 months

Sunday 6th May 2012
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Hoofy said:
240p, we meet again.

Reardy Mister

13,757 posts

221 months

Sunday 6th May 2012
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Christ.

You both need to have a good long at yourselves and hope you get mugged by some perspective whilst youre at it.

The problem here isnt patriotism.

Condi

17,089 posts

170 months

Monday 7th May 2012
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TheHeretic said:
Nationalism and patriotism are very off stances, to me anyway. You are proud of something you never did, for reasons you never had any say in. Someone said "patriotism is the belief that a country is superior because you were born in it" or words to that effect.

It's pointless. By all means be proud of your personal feelings about issues, etc, but nationalism, and patriotism for the sake of it seems dumb.
Yes, but we - as a collective, as a country - have done some great things of which its good to be proud of.


Its like supporting a football team as well then - you dont play for them, you dont dictate tactics, many football supporters dont even contribute financially to their team - and yet thousands of people will align themselves with teams they like, some fanatically so. At least, say, if I declare Im proud of our actions - as a country - in the Battle of Britain, I know that my Grandad was one of many brave men. There is a connection there, a connection which runs through our blood and back into time. We are all, in some way, connected with the past.

TwigtheWonderkid

43,248 posts

149 months

Monday 7th May 2012
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I think it was Mark Twain who said a true patriot is someone prepared to defend his country from its own government.

Basically, someone who critisises this country or the way we do things can be more patriotic than someone who doesn't.

George Bush snr once said that you couldn't be an atheist and be patriotc. An real insult to the American atheists who fought for their country.

I like to think I'm patriotic but whilst I have nothing against the Queen as an individual, I certainly am anti monarchy as a matter of principal. My granfather was an anti monarchist who was badly injured fighting for this country in the last war.

There would have been a time in this country's history when being anti slavery would have been considered unpatriotic. We launched an attack against the Chinese because we wanted to continue flooding their market with cochaine and they thought cochaine was bad and wanted to stop it. When we won, we took Hong Kong as compensation for the trouble they'd caused us. Any Brit who questioned that would have been called unpatriotic.

Just because someone is against something that is a tradition that we've done for a long time doesn't make them unpatriotic.

I love this country, but I think there are many things wrong with it. The two aren't mutually incompatible.

The Hitman

2,592 posts

209 months

Monday 7th May 2012
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I'm proud we have a royal family, I'm not proud of how much money they recieve from us.

I'm no socialist, but I think the majority of Britain have it really hard, especially with the widening gap or disparity between the well off and the poor. Also we have the worst standard of living in the whole of Europe.

These are also things I'm not proud of and since this is the case, I think that the amount of money we provide the monarchy in this country should be revised.

It wasn't that long ago that Dave considered gifting a ship to the Queen from the pockets of us which was the thick end of 1 Billion pounds sterling...and even without that drain on the budget we are in a double-dip recession.

Something has to change, we can't afford to just carry on as we have, certainly not now the walls are crumbling around our ears.

The Hitman

2,592 posts

209 months

Monday 7th May 2012
quotequote all
Condi said:
Yes, but we - as a collective, as a country - have done some great things of which its good to be proud of.


Its like supporting a football team as well then - you dont play for them, you dont dictate tactics, many football supporters dont even contribute financially to their team - and yet thousands of people will align themselves with teams they like, some fanatically so. At least, say, if I declare Im proud of our actions - as a country - in the Battle of Britain, I know that my Grandad was one of many brave men. There is a connection there, a connection which runs through our blood and back into time. We are all, in some way, connected with the past.
So are you saying we should never question our government? Even though, say for example, when we went to war in Iraq some 9/10 years ago...that was a good idea? When Thatcher sold off all of the publicly owned amenities of our nation for privatisation and then used to funds to bank-roll the tax cuts for the rich which caused the economy to explode in the 1980's? That was a well thought out plan?

I will never blindly follow anyone, as that is fundamently what a dicatorship is.

davepoth

29,395 posts

198 months

Monday 7th May 2012
quotequote all
TwigtheWonderkid said:
There would have been a time in this country's history when being anti slavery would have been considered unpatriotic. We launched an attack against the Chinese because we wanted to continue flooding their market with cochaine and they thought cochaine was bad and wanted to stop it. When we won, we took Hong Kong as compensation for the trouble they'd caused us. Any Brit who questioned that would have been called unpatriotic.
Opium, actually. And there was a perfectly patriotic reason for it - China's control of tea, crockery and other goods, and lack of need for anything British, meant that UK gold and silver reserves were being drained at an alarming rate. If we'd not found an inventive way of forcing the issue, the country would have been bankrupted.

As regards slavery, and more specifically African slavery which I guess is what you mean, the picture is at best muddled. Legal precedent bats it back and forth from legality to illegality between 1102 and 1834, although it was generally held that slaves were freed as soon as they set foot on English soil. Slavery was never a matter of national pride; it was something all of the colonial powers did. It only became a matter of national pride when we abolished it before the French.

TVR Sagaris

833 posts

231 months

Monday 7th May 2012
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I am a monarchist. I am also a parliamentarian; neither makes me a nationalist. But I do support the UK.

Famous Graham

26,553 posts

224 months

Monday 7th May 2012
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Wow - reads like you two deserve each other. What a load of embarrassing tripe.

zb

2,498 posts

163 months

Monday 7th May 2012
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I have a fairly pragmatic view.

I do not believe there is any intellectual argument sufficient to support that a collection of individuals, through an accident of birth, should be considered "better" than other people borne of these shores. However, the majority of people of these shores appear content with a constitutional monarchy (I mean there's never been a vote, but neither is there a huge swathe of "anti" sentiment with regards to the monarchy), so I'm prepared to live and let live.

I also see some value in having people outside the political process that can speak their mind, Prince Charles' view on environment, global warming etc I find very welcome.

Don't get me wrong, I guess at my core I'd be a Republican, but a pick'n'mix one.

Dixie68

3,091 posts

186 months

Monday 7th May 2012
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The Hitman said:
I'm proud we have a royal family, I'm not proud of how much money they recieve from us.

I'm no socialist, but I think the majority of Britain have it really hard, especially with the widening gap or disparity between the well off and the poor. Also we have the worst standard of living in the whole of Europe.

These are also things I'm not proud of and since this is the case, I think that the amount of money we provide the monarchy in this country should be revised.
How about they keep all the money they make and we give them nothing? Because they'd be far, far richer and we'd be far, far poorer. It only takes a couple of minutes Googling to find out that we get far more money FROM the Royal Family than we pay out to them, so WHY is this always trotted out? (And that's not even taking into consideration the money we get from tourists).

AJS-

15,366 posts

235 months

Monday 7th May 2012
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What a pair of tts.

I generally find most of my friends have a similar political outlook to mine, though not to say the same. I put this down to shared values.

However, lots of people are left wing at university because they think it makes them look cool or intelligent. Just don't talk politics with him and he'll probably grow out of it, unless he's genuinely just wrong about stuff by nature. In which case either rise above it and humour his ranting like you would if he lost a leg, or never talk politics with him.

And careful not to be a fruitcake yourself. It's alright being patriotic, but if you're 20 and wearing a monacle, drinking real ale and talking about the good old days, then go and give yourself a slap. You did say "these days" a couple of times.

Oh, and get some better arguments. Why are you "proud" of the monarchy?

Constitutional monarchy is good because it gives us an apolitical figurehead and stands as a bulwark to the arrogance and vanity of elected politicians which would otherwise know no bounds. That's why if you look around the world, nearly everywhere kingdoms are happier, freer and better places to be than republics.