Misfits, Dad's Army Types et al...

[yellowjack]

Lopey said:

yellowjack said:

The lack of volunteers thing? I can see the problem to be blunt. It's the whole dressing like a Belisha Beacon, riding one of their bikes, and the training and being "on call 24 hours a day" thing.

There are tens of thousands of mountain bikers all over the land. I'm pretty sure the majority of them would happily turn out to help find a member of the community who went missing. I have my own bike, my own safety kit, and make my own decisions on what to wear/carry based on weather forecasts and trail conditions. I accept that some form of training in helping the vulnerable might be a damned good idea, and that it might be necessary to be CRB checked. But at the end of the day, you don't need to ride as a team of four to cover ground and spot people. Would they turn away a volunteer who hadn't bee trained? Surely mobilizing the local MTB trail club, handing out some 2-way radios, and a briefing by a police officer would get more people out looking, and find the missing person sooner?

It's the pseudo-uniform, the hierarchy, and the faux-military 'comms and protocol' nonsense that makes these "4th emergency service" types divisive and exclusive, rather than inclusive and welcoming to most ordinary folk. So if I spotted an appeal for volunteers to assist the police in a missing person search, sure, I'd volunteer. But to be sorted, organised, and ordered around by some social misfit in ill-fitting hi-vis? No, sorry, but I'm not up for that. And after spending half my life on a 3 hour notice pager for 5 years, I know what REAL on-call means, and what it can do to you after a while. So no, I'm not willing to sleep with one eye open, nor be contactable 24 hours a bloody day either. It's not assisting, or volunteering that puts people off helping. I really do think it's the attitude of many of the folk who have appointed themselves to run the show that makes others reluctant to help. If they'd just chill out a bit, and quit blowing their own trumpet quite so damned hard, I think more people would be willing to sacrifice some of their free time to help out...

To be blunt, people like yourself are precisely why they don't want or need Joe Bloggs out pretend searching in lycra suits.

Well, thank you for your kind words, etc, etc...

Last year I helped reunite an 8 year-old girl with her family. She'd got lost during a family walk, playing on local heathland, and a large group of family and friends was out searching for her. I happened to pass them and they asked me to keep an eye out for her. They were spread out walking one way down the heath, I zoomed to the other end and found her rather upset and heading the wrong way. Now I imagine the family would have found her eventually, and they were discussing involving the police when I rode back and told them I'd found her. All I did was speed things up a little.

Last week I found a dog that was lost. Two young lads were running around frantically trying to find the dog, which turned out to belong to two women who were also searching. Again, heathland with lots of gorse, hard to see very far. I rode to the top of a hill and spotted the dog, and directed the ladies who'd lost it to where it was. Once they were within earshot, the dog returned itself, but they were looking in the wrong place. Hardly an emergency, as it was only a dog. But the mother and daughter who'd lost it were pleased to have it back before it got dark.

Neither situation needed hi-vis, radios, or 4x4s, and were solved by a couple of willing folks ready to spend a few minutes helping out some other people.

And FWIW, as a properly trained off road driver, and a former Class 1 signaller, with 25 years of real military experience, I'd hazard a guess that I'd be of more use than 'Derek and his mobile disco Disco' and 'clipboard Colin' when it comes down to properly executing a search plan. I ride MTBs locally more days than I don't. I know some of our local green open spaces VERY well, and all of them are familiar to me. I don't need an excuse to ride, so I'd happily respond to a call for volunteers. I don't know of any 4x4 vehicle, whether the driver is trained by "time served off road instructors" or not, that can get down a narrow footpath between gorse bushes to search properly, but I can go wherever a walker can go, and I can cover ground quicker. I'm flexible too - I don't currently have a job so, as long as I've got food, fluids, and appropriate clothing, I can stay out as long as I'm needed. But you're probably right. I'd not be welcome in my silly Lycra suit, and my "if we're gonna do a job, let's at least do it properly" attitude...

TL:DR? Whatever, Trevor.

[Lopey]

egor110 said:

Why do you think they have to wear lycra ?

Also when people go missing the police do ask for volunteers to help search so if there missing in the middle of nowhere why not use mountainbikers, runners who can cover more area and get down tracks 4x4's can't?

This thread is about generalisations isn't it?

I can't remember the last time, in recent history, the police have requested members of the public to volunteer to help on a search. On a few occasions, there have been groups of people wanting to help out and volunteered themselves without any external encouragement, but these groups (If handled by a search and rescue team) are usually sent out to areas that have already been searched, or have a low likelihood of a find.

[sc0tt]

yellowjack said:

And FWIW, as a properly trained off road driver, and a former Class 1 signaller, with 25 years of real military experience, I'd hazard a guess that I'd be of more use than 'Derek and his mobile disco Disco' and 'clipboard Colin' when it comes down to properly executing a search plan.

Good work.

[BossHogg]

yellowjack said:

And FWIW, as a properly trained off road driver, and a former Class 1 signaller, with 25 years of real military experience, I'd hazard a guess that I'd be of more use than 'Derek and his mobile disco Disco' and 'clipboard Colin' when it comes down to properly executing a search plan.

Not a scaleyback!!!!

[yellowjack]

BossHogg said:

Not a scaleyback!!!!

No. Well, not like I think you're thinking.

I was Royal Engineers, the original scaleybacks*. The current Royal Corps of Signals was born in 1920 out of the Royal Engineers Signal Service. Signaller in the RE is just one of many 'Combat Trades' a Sapper can be employed in. I got 'spammed' to be a "Radio (ab)User" in my Junior Soldier days, and subsequently had little choice about progressing through from Class 3 Signaller up to Class 1. Got to where I was entitled to wear the flags too, although I never stitched them on. It was one of a number of trades I learned, none of which have been of any use in the world outside the army...

*Fun fact? The nickname "Scaleyback" derives from the leaking contents of the batteries in early man portable radio sets, which were carried on their backs by operators. This led to nasty skin conditions, quite literally giving them "scaley backs"...

Fun fact #2? In 1875, Royal Engineers A.F.C. won the FA Cup!

[AW111]

[yellowjack]

AW111 said:

Ah! You seek the Clerk of Works, I believe. You need HQ Chilwell Station for them...


...I definitely wasn't one of those.

[egor110]

Lopey said:

egor110 said:

Why do you think they have to wear lycra ?

Also when people go missing the police do ask for volunteers to help search so if there missing in the middle of nowhere why not use mountainbikers, runners who can cover more area and get down tracks 4x4's can't?

This thread is about generalisations isn't it?

I can't remember the last time, in recent history, the police have requested members of the public to volunteer to help on a search. On a few occasions, there have been groups of people wanting to help out and volunteered themselves without any external encouragement, but these groups (If handled by a search and rescue team) are usually sent out to areas that have already been searched, or have a low likelihood of a find.

Lol at the pretend searching part , are you professionally trained or just some fat barry in your raised 4x4 lording it up ?

Surely if somebody is missing then the general public need to know at least a contact number so if they do happen to find them they can contact the search and rescue.

I'd rather be found by the group i run with a few nhs a few police a few marines than some walt with a high viz jacket and no idea how to administer 1st aid.

[Shakermaker]

techiedave said:

Just as a general reply to the cones section of this excellent and long running thread.
I have noticed that some truck seem to have a cone spike on them that the cones are lowered onto, I have been behind a couple of late. Is this the correct way to travel with cones. Also I note that some cleaning companies are using cones as a warning device for wet floors. is this not an abuse of the whole cones principle ?

A number of companies have moved away from the "cones to warn of wet floors" because they have decided they were entirely ineffective at stopping people from slipping over on said wet floor, and putting a cone out doesn't stop potential liability. Instead, during cleaning, access to said area will be completely blocked off with whatever physical barrier is deemed suitable, which might be closing the doors and locking them it might be using movable barriers, or tape as a temporary solution.

Much more opportunity for the Walts to get involved if you ask me!

[kowalski655]

If more walts dressed like this

im sure more would volunteer

Most walts wouldnt recognise these as actual women,they dont look like their mum

[BossHogg]

yellowjack said:

No. Well, not like I think you're thinking.

I was Royal Engineers, the original scaleybacks*. The current Royal Corps of Signals was born in 1920 out of the Royal Engineers Signal Service. Signaller in the RE is just one of many 'Combat Trades' a Sapper can be employed in. I got 'spammed' to be a "Radio (ab)User" in my Junior Soldier days, and subsequently had little choice about progressing through from Class 3 Signaller up to Class 1. Got to where I was entitled to wear the flags too, although I never stitched them on. It was one of a number of trades I learned, none of which have been of any use in the world outside the army...

*Fun fact? The nickname "Scaleyback" derives from the leaking contents of the batteries in early man portable radio sets, which were carried on their backs by operators. This led to nasty skin conditions, quite literally giving them "scaley backs"...

Fun fact #2? In 1875, Royal Engineers A.F.C. won the FA Cup!

Very interesting, I was just a humourless power crazy monkey!

[yellowjack]

BossHogg said:

Very interesting, I was just a humourless power crazy monkey!

At least your hats were proper Red. Not like those pink things the Browning Barracks lot wore...



...oops! Pulled pin and forgot to throw the grenade. [Takes cover, and vows to stay the hell out of Colchester!!!]

I've got a friend who transferred from RADC to RMP, just after I left. I randomly bumped into him at the National Arboretum on Remembrance Day, despite the huge numbers of people there. Odd how small the world seems sometimes. Two people who are both over a hundred miles from home (in different directions) meet by chance in a crowd of thousands.

[_dobbo_]

kowalski655 said:

If more walts dressed like this

im sure more would volunteer

Most walts wouldnt recognise these as actual women,they dont look like their mum

If walts dressed like that I certainly wouldn't volunteer. If they looked like that AND dressed like that I'd be walting all over the place!

[anonymous-user]

Shakermaker said:

techiedave said:

Just as a general reply to the cones section of this excellent and long running thread.
I have noticed that some truck seem to have a cone spike on them that the cones are lowered onto, I have been behind a couple of late. Is this the correct way to travel with cones. Also I note that some cleaning companies are using cones as a warning device for wet floors. is this not an abuse of the whole cones principle ?

A number of companies have moved away from the "cones to warn of wet floors" because they have decided they were entirely ineffective at stopping people from slipping over on said wet floor, and putting a cone out doesn't stop potential liability. Instead, during cleaning, access to said area will be completely blocked off with whatever physical barrier is deemed suitable, which might be closing the doors and locking them it might be using movable barriers, or tape as a temporary solution.

Much more opportunity for the Walts to get involved if you ask me!

Would this sort of tape be a good choice and is it environmentally friendly:

https://www.barriersdirect.co.uk/car-security-mirr...

[Lopey]

egor110 said:

Lol at the pretend searching part , are you professionally trained or just some fat barry in your raised 4x4 lording it up ?

Surely if somebody is missing then the general public need to know at least a contact number so if they do happen to find them they can contact the search and rescue.

I'd rather be found by the group i run with a few nhs a few police a few marines than some walt with a high viz jacket and no idea how to administer 1st aid.

Our team is governed by ALSAR,and as such, all operational members are professionally trained to their standards. The majority of our team consists of Senior police officers, detectives, beat officers, firemen, doctors, nurses, mental health practioners, paramedics, ambulance techs, ex-forces etc. Some members run outward bound courses, duke of edinburgh, etc. We have some members who enjoy the outdoors and find it as a worthwhile way to give something back to the community.

As a minimum, all operational members are trained to first aid at work standards plus additional modules, but our team is going beyond that and currently training all operational members to be first responders as and when money allows. No trainees are ever taken out onto an active search.

I think you may also be confusing Lowland Rescue with some of these 4x4 groups. Only a few lowland teams throughout the UK have "team" 4x4's. None are ever used for searching. The only time they would be used is either to assist in casualty/body recovery, or ferry team members to their respective search areas. The majority of searches are undertaken on foot.

Oh, and I don't have a 4x4 either, just a van and a Clio 200 for the track.

Edit 1:Maybe you should have watched the recent BBC documentary, "Reported Missing". Due to the area it was filmed, Mountain Rescue were used (MR areas don't crossover into LR areas) however the response and search techniques are exactly the same.

Edited by Lopey on Thursday 27th April 21:46

Edit 2: The reason the general public aren't called in to assist in active searches is because of the nature of the people that are being looked for. The majority either have mental health issues, are despondent, suicidal, etc, and not only do you need to know how to help in those circumstances, but you also need to consider that they want to keep this private. They don't want the whole town to know what has happened to them, so confidentiality is a key thing to consider. An appeal will normally be made by the police through normal media channels but details about why they are missing are normally kept confidential, and it wouldn't be asking for volunteers, just asking if anyone in the area has seen that person.

Another thing to consider is that in some circumstances, (as an example) the person missing was last seen on Monday (by their part time home help). It is now thursday, and the home help has not been able to contact the person.So potentially, the person could have been missing for 3 nights in the cold weather. They might not have, but with only that information to go on, there is a fair chance that it is a body we are looking for. It is a bit unrealistic to expect a member of the public to be able to deal with finding a 3-4+ day old body but also we are trained in how to secure a crime scene (by the police) which it will be if a body is found.

Sorry for waffling on a bit, but getting a bit fed up with some of these posts which are clearly based on ignorance and misinformation.

Edited by Lopey on Thursday 27th April 22:01

[Gargamel]

See and this is the thing the bothers me about the whole mentality.

I am "an ordinary member of the public" But I couldn't care less about finding a three to four day old dead body, wouldn't be a concern.


But after a little bit of training, some people in these types of roles believe they are fundamentally different from other normal functioning adults.

The language used is exactly indicative of this - "ordinary member of the public" - there is nothing extraordinary about first aid training and having a radio and a high viz jacket.

[yellowjack]

Lopey said:

egor110 said:

Lol at the pretend searching part , are you professionally trained or just some fat barry in your raised 4x4 lording it up ?

Surely if somebody is missing then the general public need to know at least a contact number so if they do happen to find them they can contact the search and rescue.

I'd rather be found by the group i run with a few nhs a few police a few marines than some walt with a high viz jacket and no idea how to administer 1st aid.

Our team is governed by ALSAR,and as such, all operational members are professionally trained to their standards. The majority of our team consists of Senior police officers, detectives, beat officers, firemen, doctors, nurses, mental health practioners, paramedics, ambulance techs, ex-forces etc. Some members run outward bound courses, duke of edinburgh, etc. We have some members who enjoy the outdoors and find it as a worthwhile way to give something back to the community.

As a minimum, all operational members are trained to first aid at work standards plus additional modules, but our team is going beyond that and currently training all operational members to be first responders as and when money allows. No trainees are ever taken out onto an active search.

I think you may also be confusing Lowland Rescue with some of these 4x4 groups. Only a few lowland teams throughout the UK have "team" 4x4's. None are ever used for searching. The only time they would be used is either to assist in casualty/body recovery, or ferry team members to their respective search areas. The majority of searches are undertaken on foot.

Oh, and I don't have a 4x4 either, just a van and a Clio 200 for the track.

Edit 1:Maybe you should have watched the recent BBC documentary, "Reported Missing". Due to the area it was filmed, Mountain Rescue were used (MR areas don't crossover into LR areas) however the response and search techniques are exactly the same.

Edited by Lopey on Thursday 27th April 21:46

Edit 2: The reason the general public aren't called in to assist in active searches is because of the nature of the people that are being looked for. The majority either have mental health issues, are despondent, suicidal, etc, and not only do you need to know how to help in those circumstances, but you also need to consider that they want to keep this private. They don't want the whole town to know what has happened to them, so confidentiality is a key thing to consider. An appeal will normally be made by the police through normal media channels but details about why they are missing are normally kept confidential, and it wouldn't be asking for volunteers, just asking if anyone in the area has seen that person.

Another thing to consider is that in some circumstances, (as an example) the person missing was last seen on Monday (by their part time home help). It is now thursday, and the home help has not been able to contact the person.So potentially, the person could have been missing for 3 nights in the cold weather. They might not have, but with only that information to go on, there is a fair chance that it is a body we are looking for. It is a bit unrealistic to expect a member of the public to be able to deal with finding a 3-4+ day old body but also we are trained in how to secure a crime scene (by the police) which it will be if a body is found.

Sorry for waffling on a bit, but getting a bit fed up with some of these posts which are clearly based on ignorance and misinformation.

Earlier...

Lopey said:

To be blunt, people like yourself are precisely why they don't want or need Joe Bloggs out pretend searching in lycra suits.

Yet I'm a 25 year army veteran. I have first aid training to Team Medic standard. I've run a guard shift, so know all about Confirm/Clear/Cordon/Control, and I've collected body parts for burial. Yet, because I've been retired from the army, I now consider myself to be quite firmly in the "ordinary member of the public" camp.

Yet again it's the hierarchical pseudo-official gibberish that puts me off volunteering. By all means check that I'm properly equipped for the conditions and the task at hand (mostly to ensure I don't make a situation worse). But how much harder can it be to wander about searching for a missing person than being sent out to search for booby-trapped armoured vehicles in a hostile environment? I coped OK with that, so I'm confident I can be of use looking for Doris in the local country park...


...aaaahm oot !

[Shakermaker]

yellowjack said:

Yet I'm a 25 year army veteran. I have first aid training to Team Medic standard. I've run a guard shift, so know all about Confirm/Clear/Cordon/Control, and I've collected body parts for burial. Yet, because I've been retired from the army, I now consider myself to be quite firmly in the "ordinary member of the public" camp.

Yet again it's the hierarchical pseudo-official gibberish that puts me off volunteering. By all means check that I'm properly equipped for the conditions and the task at hand (mostly to ensure I don't make a situation worse). But how much harder can it be to wander about searching for a missing person than being sent out to search for booby-trapped armoured vehicles in a hostile environment? I coped OK with that, so I'm confident I can be of use looking for Doris in the local country park...


...aaaahm oot !

You aren't going to win here unless you grudgingly accept that despite everything you have posted, you are inferior to "Clipboard Clive and the Landy Lads".

Who are probably the offical Walt Band.

[yellowjack]

Shakermaker said:

You aren't going to win here unless you grudgingly accept that despite everything you have posted, you are inferior to "Clipboard Clive and the Landy Lads".

Who are probably the offical Walt Band.

[Shakermaker]

I'm off to a potential Walt hangout tomorrow - the Reading Beer Festival.

Much opportunity for hi-vis, radios, clipboards, perimeter fencing, beer guts, cowboy hats and clothes solely bought at other beer festivals or museum gift shops.

I shall return next week and give you a run down if I spot any actual Walting, as opposed to just helpful volunteering.