Misfits, Dad's Army Types et al...
Discussion
That might work in what you refer to as a "management" role but away from the REMFS at the sharp end in the infantry it's entirely different. Training at Sandhurst is with good reason based on the infantry section and platoon and the word management is simply not used.
It's about command and control. The officer selection system is well-honed one that has worked well until now. One of my boys was at Westbury last week and two of the candidates in his section of 8 were serving soldiers from the ranks so the pathway is open. Interestingly the testing is almost identical to what I did in the 80s.
LF - ex-infantry officer
It's about command and control. The officer selection system is well-honed one that has worked well until now. One of my boys was at Westbury last week and two of the candidates in his section of 8 were serving soldiers from the ranks so the pathway is open. Interestingly the testing is almost identical to what I did in the 80s.
LF - ex-infantry officer
Psycho Warren said:
Stick Legs said:
Zoobeef said:
Yep, it's a class system pure and simple and needs to go.
Merchant Navy is similar on that front, started as a Deck Cadet, a few years training and some exams and then a Junior officer in charge of the deck crew.My old Bosun (Petty Officer equivalent) from when I was a Cadet is still on my ship and I am now the Captain.
Having said that, no exam pass no promotion, regardless of who you are are how much your company wants to promote you. So it is a meritocracy.
Certainly in the RN and forces in general, officer rank was purely class based. However that is not the case these days. Being rich may get you a place at AIB but wont get you a pass, same with BRNC, being rich wont get you anywhere there.
I don't think the idea of officers often being not from the ranks needs to go. Certainly not in the navy. The job and skills needed are completely different from the ratings. Its not like the army where a junior officer needs the same weapons handling skills to effectively lead (hence young officers in the army are viewed with such disdain). Outwith the raw leadership skills and aspect, for example a warfare officer of the watch on a warship will have a completely different skillset to a warfare rating - even with decades of experience.
Zoobeef said:
Psycho Warren said:
Stick Legs said:
Zoobeef said:
Yep, it's a class system pure and simple and needs to go.
Merchant Navy is similar on that front, started as a Deck Cadet, a few years training and some exams and then a Junior officer in charge of the deck crew.My old Bosun (Petty Officer equivalent) from when I was a Cadet is still on my ship and I am now the Captain.
Having said that, no exam pass no promotion, regardless of who you are are how much your company wants to promote you. So it is a meritocracy.
Certainly in the RN and forces in general, officer rank was purely class based. However that is not the case these days. Being rich may get you a place at AIB but wont get you a pass, same with BRNC, being rich wont get you anywhere there.
I don't think the idea of officers often being not from the ranks needs to go. Certainly not in the navy. The job and skills needed are completely different from the ratings. Its not like the army where a junior officer needs the same weapons handling skills to effectively lead (hence young officers in the army are viewed with such disdain). Outwith the raw leadership skills and aspect, for example a warfare officer of the watch on a warship will have a completely different skillset to a warfare rating - even with decades of experience.
Burrow01 said:
Zoobeef said:
Psycho Warren said:
Stick Legs said:
Zoobeef said:
Yep, it's a class system pure and simple and needs to go.
Merchant Navy is similar on that front, started as a Deck Cadet, a few years training and some exams and then a Junior officer in charge of the deck crew.My old Bosun (Petty Officer equivalent) from when I was a Cadet is still on my ship and I am now the Captain.
Having said that, no exam pass no promotion, regardless of who you are are how much your company wants to promote you. So it is a meritocracy.
Certainly in the RN and forces in general, officer rank was purely class based. However that is not the case these days. Being rich may get you a place at AIB but wont get you a pass, same with BRNC, being rich wont get you anywhere there.
I don't think the idea of officers often being not from the ranks needs to go. Certainly not in the navy. The job and skills needed are completely different from the ratings. Its not like the army where a junior officer needs the same weapons handling skills to effectively lead (hence young officers in the army are viewed with such disdain). Outwith the raw leadership skills and aspect, for example a warfare officer of the watch on a warship will have a completely different skillset to a warfare rating - even with decades of experience.
Zoobeef said:
Fully proving my point with the class system. Officers are clever, other ranks are stupid.
certainly not the case. different skills, not necessarily more clever. Many artificers and similar engineering specialists and some warfare specialists will have a much higher IQ requirement and sometimes educational requirement of most officers. Different as in a warfare rating may well have a lot of hands on knowledge and skill with seamanship based tasks and maintenance. An officer would not have any of those skills other than those gained in basic training when you had to shadow ratings as part of your initial sea training. Hell I can't throw a heaving line to save my life but a decent rating would be able to put the monkeys fist in pretty much the same place every time. Same with all sorts of skills.
But on a Bridge, for example, I have advanced training on Rules of the road, ocean and coastal navigation, chart work skills, assessing other shipping, bridge warfare skills such as landing limits for helicopters, drills for certain kinds of attacks etc etc etc.
Thats in addition to the leadership aspect of the roles - ie as an Officer of the Watch you have direct charge of the bridge team who look to you for orders relating to manouvering the ship.
I certainly do think there should be a bit better distribution of resources in terms of roles for very senior ratings and experience gaining roles for junior officers. But if you did away with the system totally what would you replace it with? You still need leaders at all levels. You also need people with decades of relevent experience, be it general warfare and/or technical knowledge.
You see a lot more overlap of those roles than there used to be. Although that is very branch and experience specific. Eg traditionally on most bigger ships you would expect a commissioned officer to be the officer of the day in port, that has changed over the last few decades and you see more experienced NCO's doing the same role.
Plus some roles have overlap for duplication as well as training and experience reasons.
Im not sure how the army does it but thier environment is quite different so the "action centrered leadership" approach as they sometimes called it probably works better for them.
Is it still the common joke that a 2ndLt and Lt recently out of sandhurst can't be trusted with a map and compass?
Psycho Warren said:
Stick Legs said:
Having said that, no exam pass no promotion, regardless of who you are are how much your company wants to promote you. So it is a meritocracy.
I thought in the merchant navy you had to meet certain STCW requirements for deck officer and master roles etc? The basics are Sea Survival and Fire Fighting.
Then you add specialisations such as Cook, Deck Hand or Motor Man which are the 'non-officer' trade qualifications.
Then OOW (Officer of the Watch) Deck or Engine, 3 year cadetship plus examination by the MCA.
Then Chief Mate or 2nd Engineer.
Then Master or Ch/Eng.
It's a system that works and there are no short cuts or ways around it, in so called 'White List' countries anyway. The STCW Black List is all the administrations where a fat envelope ensures a pass. Some white list countries are not as strict as others, but a British Certificate of Competency is still respected world wide.
Stick Legs said:
You have to meet STCW requirements at every level from dancers on Cruise Ships right up to Master Mariner or Chief Engineer.
Which is why most ex-RN captains can't command a picket boat in the merchant navy. It was always the joke when i was in that the captain of one of the carriers, couldn't drive the Gosport ferry when he retired. Unless theyve improved things recently, the RN STCW qualifications are all "MoD only" which makes them pretty much worthless on civvy street. When I left, despite a lot of log book time in an OOW role, navigation officer qualifications and experience etc and having done loads of "STCW" exams along the way, the only thing I could do was drive a small powerboat and be competent crew on a sailing boat as I had spent extra time getting the RYA qualifications for that. Although I am sure they will be "time expired" by now.
Psycho Warren said:
>Snip<
Is it still the common joke that a 2ndLt and Lt recently out of sandhurst can't be trusted with a map and compass?
I used to share the odd pint with a former Desert Rat and I once jokingly asked him about officers and maps. I can't remember the full story he but told me that during the Normandy campaign he foolishly trusted an officer to navigate whilst he drove, they ended up on the wrong side of the lines and face to face with a German tank.Is it still the common joke that a 2ndLt and Lt recently out of sandhurst can't be trusted with a map and compass?
The bravely drove/ran away...
Tango13 said:
I used to share the odd pint with a former Desert Rat and I once jokingly asked him about officers and maps. I can't remember the full story he but told me that during the Normandy campaign he foolishly trusted an officer to navigate whilst he drove, they ended up on the wrong side of the lines and face to face with a German tank.
The bravely drove/ran away...
LOL. A lot has happened, hopefully for the better, with officer training in 75 years one would hope!The bravely drove/ran away...
It does surprise me as even being in the Navy, in your first term of basic training, you almost do as much land map reading and navigation as you do water navigation and chart reading. We even have a big "final Assessment" on Dartmoor for a few days which you would fail if you were unable to navigate around the moors on a map and compass.
So for an Army officer to struggle in this day and age would indicate a lot of incompetence!
Psycho Warren said:
Stick Legs said:
You have to meet STCW requirements at every level from dancers on Cruise Ships right up to Master Mariner or Chief Engineer.
Which is why most ex-RN captains can't command a picket boat in the merchant navy. It was always the joke when i was in that the captain of one of the carriers, couldn't drive the Gosport ferry when he retired. Unless theyve improved things recently, the RN STCW qualifications are all "MoD only" which makes them pretty much worthless on civvy street. When I left, despite a lot of log book time in an OOW role, navigation officer qualifications and experience etc and having done loads of "STCW" exams along the way, the only thing I could do was drive a small powerboat and be competent crew on a sailing boat as I had spent extra time getting the RYA qualifications for that. Although I am sure they will be "time expired" by now.
Here you go. The very helpful guide they have now published to help.
Tango13 said:
Psycho Warren said:
>Snip<
Is it still the common joke that a 2ndLt and Lt recently out of sandhurst can't be trusted with a map and compass?
I used to share the odd pint with a former Desert Rat and I once jokingly asked him about officers and maps. I can't remember the full story he but told me that during the Normandy campaign he foolishly trusted an officer to navigate whilst he drove, they ended up on the wrong side of the lines and face to face with a German tank.Is it still the common joke that a 2ndLt and Lt recently out of sandhurst can't be trusted with a map and compass?
The bravely drove/ran away...
Best one we had was in BATUS (Canada). Live firing battle group exercise, we needed to get to a harbour area to prepare for a minefield breach using a live Giant Viper, We were on our way there across a suspiciously quiet bit of prairie when we heard a "Stop! Stop! Stop!" order on the radio. Then came a red-painted Ferret scout car tearing across the prairie toward us, Then a Gazelle helicopter with red patches arrived. We'd only taken a "short cut" across a live tank firing range. The Chieftain tanks on the firing point to our right were pointed out, then the targets to our left. Callsign 6B wasn't at all pleased with our "monumental f
kup". The senior RE warrant officer on the safety/DS side has the callsign "6 Bravo" but is universally known by exercising troops as "6 Basrd"......5 years later my Troop Commander from that day kinda made amends for his map reading error by winning the QGM for a bomb disposal job on Portland, Dorset.
hucumber said:
I thought this thread was for Walts, not Uncle Alberts
Every short course I’ve attended with ex or current MN or RFA types has involved at least one full afternoon of yarns and dits, with the ex’s usually the worst. On the subject of MN training, depending on the company who sponsor your training and how many pounds of flesh they expect from their cadet, you do end up with qualified people on the bridge who are also perfectly capable of of making and throwing a monkey’s fist.
Or at least did back in my day when cadets really were cadets....
Youngsters today...
Don’t know they’re born....
Etc....
DJFish said:
Every short course I’ve attended with ex or current MN or RFA types has involved at least one full afternoon of yarns and dits, with the ex’s usually the worst.
On the subject of MN training, depending on the company who sponsor your training and how many pounds of flesh they expect from their cadet, you do end up with qualified people on the bridge who are also perfectly capable of of making and throwing a monkey’s fist.
Or at least did back in my day when cadets really were cadets....
Youngsters today...
Don’t know they’re born....
Etc....
On the subject of MN training, depending on the company who sponsor your training and how many pounds of flesh they expect from their cadet, you do end up with qualified people on the bridge who are also perfectly capable of of making and throwing a monkey’s fist.
Or at least did back in my day when cadets really were cadets....
Youngsters today...
Don’t know they’re born....
Etc....
DJFish said:
you do end up with qualified people on the bridge who are also perfectly capable of of making and throwing a monkey’s fist.
Or at least did back in my day when cadets really were cadets....
Youngsters today...
Don’t know they’re born....
Etc....
lol.Or at least did back in my day when cadets really were cadets....
Youngsters today...
Don’t know they’re born....
Etc....
I could make up a monkeys fist and heaving line, still can't throw it straight!
When I was a JO I had to supervise the Fo'c'sle party and we had one sailor who was deadly with a heaving line. It was a game to see if he could hit a docky in the head whenever we came along side.
Psycho Warren said:
lol.
I could make up a monkeys fist and heaving line, still can't throw it straight!
When I was a JO I had to supervise the Fo'c'sle party.
A friend who worked on cruise ships was called at about 0130 to a fire in a store room, using the hand held radios they communicated using standard vocab "Fire party 1 to bridge...etc etc"I could make up a monkeys fist and heaving line, still can't throw it straight!
When I was a JO I had to supervise the Fo'c'sle party.
A load of young German lads in Hawaiian shirts turned up with booze to the site of the emergency.
One had a hand held scanner and heard the word 'Party' on G deck which was enough.
Apparently once the non-fire was made safe they did indeed 'make party'.
Gassing Station | The Lounge | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff