Half a world, and half a lifetime away.

Half a world, and half a lifetime away.

Author
Discussion

Pommygranite

14,244 posts

216 months

Tuesday 25th April 2017
quotequote all
Bookmarked

shed driver

Original Poster:

2,153 posts

160 months

Tuesday 25th April 2017
quotequote all
25th April

Sir Bedivere arrives in Marchwood from Vancouver for loading and re-storing.

Carrier Group meets with Sheffield Group.

Atlantic Conveyor and Europic Ferry depart for the South Atlantic.
British Tamar reaches Ascension.

Tug Irishman reaches Ascension.

Argentine submarine Santa Fe damaged by helicopter attacks off South Georgia.

Assault launched on Grytviken.

South Georgia recaptured.

SD.



shed driver

Original Poster:

2,153 posts

160 months

Tuesday 25th April 2017
quotequote all
The Liberation of South Georgia.

On the Endurance the night of the 24th April was spent quietly, camouflaged amongst the icebergs to the south of South Georgia. Just before dawn she moved north east along the cost toward Grytivken and made a rendezvous with the rest of the Antrim group.

At 0810 “Humphrey”, the Antrim's Wessex, armed with depth-charges and piloted by Lt Cdr Stanley had taken off for an anti-submarine search. Radar silence was maintained to avoid detection. Once the Wessex had swept Cumberland Bay Lt Parry, “Humphrey's” observer made a single sweep with the radar. He immediately saw a 'blip' and the helicopter went to investigate. The 'blip' was the Santa Fe. The Wessex launched the first naval air attack on a submarine since World War II.
One of the two depth-charges dropped exploded close to the port side of the Santa Fe, causing enough internal damage to prevent the submarine from diving. The Santa Fe turned to run for the safety of Cumberland Bay and was followed by the Wessex firing its General-Purpose Machine Gun (GPMG) and HMS Brilliant's Lynx, which first fired a homing torpedo and followed with more GPMG fire.

HMS Plymouth's Wasp was scrambled following the Wessex's sighting of the Santa Fe but was beaten to a firing position by one of Endurance's helicopters piloted by Lt Cdr Ellerbeck. The helicopter, armed with AS12 missiles, got off her two shots, the first exploding inside the submarine's large fin. The helicopter had returned to the Endurance, reloaded and returned to the Santa Fe before the Plymouth's Wasp had time to fire. Again one hit and one miss was recorded by the Endurance's Wasp. The Plymouth Wasp had time to fire only one missile, the return flight to HMS Plymouth being 50 miles.

Endurance's second helicopter, piloted by Lt T S Finding was on her way by 10:00 and after encountering machine-gun fire from King Edward Point scored another hit on Santa Fe's fin. Lt Cdr Ellerbeck's third attack was more strongly opposed with anti-tank rockets, rifle-fire from the shore and at least one machine-gun in action on the Santa Fe. The Wasp escaped damage and scored its most damaging hit, striking the periscope standards. At 11:00, the Santa Fe was alongside the pier, listing and apparently on fire.



The task group Commander decided to make the most of the offensive, and sustain the effort to recover the island. The first team ashore were a Naval Gunfire Support (NGS) team, landed by Lt Cdr Ellerbeck's Wasp. The team's spotting officer almost immediately called for gunfire against troops on Brown Mountain which the frigate provided for the next twenty minutes. The first wave of the assault was landed by HMS Antrim's Wessex and HMS Brilliant's two Lynxes about two miles from Grytviken. The remainder of the landing force was ferried ashore by the three helicopters, which were later joined by Lt Cdr Ellerbeck's Wasp.


HMS Antrim and Plymouth provided fire when called to do so. The troops stormed Grytviken and very soon the Argentines raised the white flag, sang their national anthem, and lowered the Argentinian flag after just 23 days of occupation at Grytviken.

Lt Cdr Ellerbeck had the privilege of witnessing both the beginning and end of Argentine occupation. He was awarded the Distinguished Service Cross for his actions. HMS Plymouth and HMS [/i]Endurance[/i] were sent to Leith to seize the area where the scrap men had first been landed. The small garrison was called on the radio by Endurance and asked to surrender.

The military Commander Captain Alfredo Astiz requested that the civilians be given safe refuge which was granted. However, he refused to surrender the military force.

As darkness fell, Captain Astiz, did agree to surrender and was asked to assemble his troops on the football field - a few hundred metres to the west of Leith. This the Commander refused to do - the football field was heavily mined including a particularly potent charge under the helicopter landing H provided.

The ceremony at which Captain Astiz formally surrendered was held on board HMS Plymouth.


The Signal was sent - "Be pleased to inform Her Majesty that the White Ensign flies alongside the Union Jack in South Georgia. God save the Queen." Task Force Commander Sandy Woodward actually wanted "Operation Paraquet successful."

Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher and Defence Minister John Nott gave an impromptu interview on the steps on No 10 with one of the more iconic quotes - "Rejoice!"

Nearly two hundred prisoners and civilian detainees were taken, in an operation with only one major casualty; a seaman on board Santa Fe was shot by a Royal Marine who mistook his actions as an attempt to scuttle the submarine. Read the Board of Inquiry report into the death of Felix Artuso.

SD.


Edited by shed driver on Tuesday 25th April 11:45

Beknown

254 posts

146 months

Tuesday 25th April 2017
quotequote all
All that in a day! Really interesting but, why was the submarine on the surface in the first place? Why were they shooting at it with machines guns? That sounds like shooting a tank with a hand gun.

It seems the Sante Fe took a beating but was still able to get to shore, I am guessing it had no anti air defenses?

shed driver

Original Poster:

2,153 posts

160 months

Tuesday 25th April 2017
quotequote all
Beknown said:
All that in a day! Really interesting but, why was the submarine on the surface in the first place? Why were they shooting at it with machines guns? That sounds like shooting a tank with a hand gun.

It seems the Sante Fe took a beating but was still able to get to shore, I am guessing it had no anti air defenses?
Once a submarine is attacked and possibly holed the natural instinct is to surface and try to beach in shallow waters. Also a diesel-electric boat has only limited time underwater, the helo's would have the luxury to "Hunt to Exhaustion" - battery life and air being finite.

Just a little more detail on the attack.

The original plan to use the full strength of M Company, still aboard RFA Tidespring, was scuppered, figuring that the Argentinians would probably have been pretty demoralised by what happened to their sub. They gathered together as many troops as were on Antrim (A total of 75) from SAS, SBS, Headquarters M Company, a few lads from the Mortar, Recon and Administrative sections, and ten Marines from Antrim's Complement, and started to fly them onto South Georgia. First down were some members of the Naval Gunfire Support team, who called in 4.5" shellfire from Plymouth and Antrim both as a show of force (None of the 235 rounds were within 800m of Argentine positions, though they walked it around the Argentine positions) and as a cover for the rest of the landing. The emphasis of the campaign at this stage was still on limiting casualties from both sides.

The Mk6 gun was older than the newer, single-barreled Mk8, but proved more popular in the gunfire support role as it put more shells downrange than the later gun.

The plan then was to finish landing even more troops from Plymouth and Endurance, and then just sail a few ships into view in the bay. (The ones with the 4.5" guns!). However, the Argentines were convinced to surrender by a few SAS men who walked through the minefields, and ran a Union Flag up the flagpole. One Argentine sailor had been seriously injured, and needed to have his leg amputated by the doctor from Antrim.

After the war, the submarine was determined to be too expensive to retain as a war trophy, and taken out to Grytviken Sound and scuttled.

Back at the main Task Force, which had caught up with the Sheffield group and also been joined by a number of auxilliaries and escorts, HMS Yarmouth reported a possible submarine right in the middle.

SD.



shed driver

Original Poster:

2,153 posts

160 months

Wednesday 26th April 2017
quotequote all
26th April

RFA Blue Rover reached Ascension.

HMS Intrepid and RFA Bayleaf departed UK for Ascension.

The Santa Fe is moved from King Edward Point Jetty to the whaling station.

Argentines occupy Port Howard.

Thatcher declares time for diplomacy is running out. Read the transcript of the Commons proceedings.

Organisation of American States has its first meeting on the crisis. Mendes assumed this was the one body he could count on for support, and it was backed up by the 1947 Rio treaty in which the nations in the Americas agreed to support each other against military threat from outside the continent. Argentina didn't have a great track record of playing nicely in the OAS, however.

Mendes quickly figures out that he won't get the 2/3 majority required to take action against Britain, and instead asks for a resolution demanding the withdrawal of the British Task Force, with a warning that Britain seemed to be about to land on Argentinian territory.

He got help unexpectedly from Alexander Haig, who addressed the OAS and received cold silence in return. He told OAS, in effect, to butt out and keep clear of a Washington peace effort. Afterwards, an OAS official remarked "It was as if he could see the Nobel peace prize already within his grasp"

SD.

Gad-Westy

14,548 posts

213 months

Wednesday 26th April 2017
quotequote all
Another bookmarker here. I was 2 when this was happening but it was all still fresh enough when I was a bit older to realise how significant it all was. It's not until more recent times that I've taken a real interest. This thread is full of insight and is fascinating. Thanks SD and others.

shed driver

Original Poster:

2,153 posts

160 months

Thursday 27th April 2017
quotequote all
27th April

Chiefs of staff present San Carlos landing proposals (Operation Sutton) to War cabinet.

Haig's 'final package' is sent to London and Buenos Aires. It suggests a phased joint-withdrawal, American/British/Argentine supervision arrangements, Argentine participation in the 'traditional local administration', and a long-term negotiation framework 'taking into account the wishes of both sides and the wishes of the inhabitants'. The interim period would be allowed to run up to 5 years.

London replies that it's not going to reply until it hears what Buenos Aries has to say. Buenos Aries has a think about it, but Admiral Anaya isn't feeling too kindly towards it, especially after having just lost South Georgia.

Adm. Sandy Woodward has an interview published in the media. and Her Majesty's Government is displeased. Woodward had given what he had thought was a motivational interview, emphasising the positive. Along the lines of "South Georgia was the appetizer, now my fleet is moving into position for the big match. I'd give 20:1 odds in our favour". He also added "But frankly, I'd rather be given a walkover.”

Unfortunately, this was interpreted as "Walkover Woodward will trounce the crap out of the Argentinians", and reported as such. Chief of Staff calls him up, and instructs him to do the interview again, except this time to be 'less jingoistic, more sober, peace-loving and quietly determined.'

Woodward inquires of the CGS as to if he's really expecting him to sound peace-loving when he's in a howling gale seven-thousand miles from home, commanding a battle group, preparing to fight a war most likely starting next Sunday. Answer: "Yes"

14 Stanley residents regarded by the Argentines as potential troublemakers are send to Fox Bay East. Fox Bay was occupied by around 900 men from 8th Motorised Infantry Regiment and elements of 9th Engineer Company. Several minefields were sowed around both settlements by the troops, and these still remain.

MV Norland, with 2 PARA embarked, and RFA Sir Bedivere sail from UK.

SD.

Adam B

27,213 posts

254 months

Thursday 27th April 2017
quotequote all
shed driver said:
Several minefields were sowed around both settlements by the troops, and these still remain.
pretty surprised there are still uncleared minefields on UK soil

ninja-lewis

4,239 posts

190 months

Thursday 27th April 2017
quotequote all
Adam B said:
shed driver said:
Several minefields were sowed around both settlements by the troops, and these still remain.
pretty surprised there are still uncleared minefields on UK soil
Some minefields, munitions and booby traps were cleared up in the immediate aftermath, particularly where they affected the islanders.

The efforts were complicated by various factors: a) for obvious reasons, nobody wants the Argentines to come back and do it; b) limited records exist for many of the minefields - some were simply strewn out of the back of Hercules aircraft; and c) the peat/boggy terrain means many mines have 'migrated' over the past 35 years.

Due to the risks and limited benefit of clearing the remaining minefields, the Falkland Island Government preferred that resources be spent on clearing minefields in Africa. However, under the Ottawa Convention, the UK was required to clear all mines by 2009. We got a 10 year extension so it now has to be done by 2019.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8564061....

Kermit power

28,641 posts

213 months

Thursday 27th April 2017
quotequote all
ninja-lewis said:
Some minefields, munitions and booby traps were cleared up in the immediate aftermath, particularly where they affected the islanders.

The efforts were complicated by various factors: a) for obvious reasons, nobody wants the Argentines to come back and do it; b) limited records exist for many of the minefields - some were simply strewn out of the back of Hercules aircraft; and c) the peat/boggy terrain means many mines have 'migrated' over the past 35 years.

Due to the risks and limited benefit of clearing the remaining minefields, the Falkland Island Government preferred that resources be spent on clearing minefields in Africa. However, under the Ottawa Convention, the UK was required to clear all mines by 2009. We got a 10 year extension so it now has to be done by 2019.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8564061....
That's interesting. Given everything else you've said about the limited records and mines moving about, who is going to decide whether or not we've cleared all the mines, and how will they reach a decision?

It sounds fine in theory, but not so great in practice. Is this a standard legislation that usually applies to traditionally laid minefields in solid ground?

Ginetta G15 Girl

3,220 posts

184 months

Thursday 27th April 2017
quotequote all
The mines regularly migrate to the surface.

Last time I was Down South (several years ago admittedly) there were a number of No-Go areas.

shed driver

Original Poster:

2,153 posts

160 months

Thursday 27th April 2017
quotequote all
From the FCO travel advice website.

https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/falkland-...

Admittedly rather outdated, but there were about 25,000 mines (some say 15,000) mines that were laid. Some were actually laid from the back of C130.



SD.

The Vambo

6,643 posts

141 months

Thursday 27th April 2017
quotequote all
The finest, most interesting and civilised thread in many years. clap

I have just read it in one go from the beginning and the Op deserves enormous credit. The individual posts ranging munitions capabilities to posters Dads machining weapons parts really add atmosphere.

Well done all.

moosepig

1,306 posts

241 months

Friday 28th April 2017
quotequote all
The Vambo said:
The finest, most interesting and civilised thread in many years.
I heartily concur clap

Nothing of direct relevance to add other than that I was 14 when this all kicked off, and my folks who had been evacuees during WWII made darn sure that my sister and I watched the news every evening while this was all going on. It might be 35 years ago but this thread brings it back like it was yesterday.

MrAndyW

508 posts

148 months

Friday 28th April 2017
quotequote all


Pleny of mine fields, They even let you drive through them,
Thats was the only "road" on the islands really, Between Mount Pleasant Airport (MPA) and Port Stanley. Approx 35 miles.

ThunderSpook

3,600 posts

211 months

Friday 28th April 2017
quotequote all
That road still looks exactly the same and it's a bit hairy at the speeds they drive it at biggrin

shed driver

Original Poster:

2,153 posts

160 months

Friday 28th April 2017
quotequote all
28th April

OAS votes on a Falklands resolution. Overall, Nicaragua, Cuba, Panama, Peru and Venezuela supported Argentina, with Venezuela imposing a boycott on the purchase of Scotch Whisky by its government departments. Brazil and Mexico were more cautious. Both supported the Argentine claim to the islands, but weren't so keen on the precedent of armed force to settle territorial disputes. Colombia and Chile both were decidedly against the Argentine side. Chile mainly because they had ongoing disputes with Argentina anyway, and Colombia because they had their own dispute in progress with Venezuela, and did not want anything like a precedent set for such a method of resolution.

In the end, no mention was made of a British withdrawal, and called for both sides to honour UN resolution 502. Overall, a win for the UK. In the meantime, the Junta rejects Haig's final plan as "falling short of meeting Argentina's demands regarding recognition of sovereignty and the form of a provisional administration"

Antrim Group departs from South Georgia leaving HMS Endurance on patrol.

Sandy Woodward takes part in another interview. The fallout from this comes later.

SD.

Echo66

384 posts

189 months

Friday 28th April 2017
quotequote all
ThunderSpook said:
That road still looks exactly the same and it's a bit hairy at the speeds they drive it at biggrin
I had a mate who was on the same sniper cadre as me who died on that road when the RAF bloke lost it in very bad weather & rolled the landie they were travelling in.

yellowjack

17,074 posts

166 months

Friday 28th April 2017
quotequote all
Kermit power said:
ninja-lewis said:
Some minefields, munitions and booby traps were cleared up in the immediate aftermath, particularly where they affected the islanders.

The efforts were complicated by various factors: a) for obvious reasons, nobody wants the Argentines to come back and do it; b) limited records exist for many of the minefields - some were simply strewn out of the back of Hercules aircraft; and c) the peat/boggy terrain means many mines have 'migrated' over the past 35 years.

Due to the risks and limited benefit of clearing the remaining minefields, the Falkland Island Government preferred that resources be spent on clearing minefields in Africa. However, under the Ottawa Convention, the UK was required to clear all mines by 2009. We got a 10 year extension so it now has to be done by 2019.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8564061....
That's interesting. Given everything else you've said about the limited records and mines moving about, who is going to decide whether or not we've cleared all the mines, and how will they reach a decision?

It sounds fine in theory, but not so great in practice. Is this a standard legislation that usually applies to traditionally laid minefields in solid ground?
Not an expert on the subject (not an EOD operator but served 7 years in an EOD regiment), I'd imagine the task of clearance will fall to 33/101 EOD Regiments, Royal Engineers. Or it could even be contracted out to one of a few private EOD companies.

RE EOD have a civilian-staffed Explosive Ordnance Clearance Group. Their usual job is range clearance operations in the UK. Often prior to planned sell-offs or hand-backs of land no longer required for military use. The trouble is, due to the nature of the threat, I think it will have to be serving soldiers used for mine clearance. But with the end of operations in Afghanistan and Iraq, there are a good number of EOD teams trained right now, and potentially available. 101 EOD were stepped up from being a reserve unit to fill a capability gap in the regular army. I imagine that at some point the EOD capability will be reduced in a budget cutting exercise, but probably not until tasks like the FI mine clearance work are finished with.

The actual task of clearing mines is horrible. Every available resource will be deployed, and mechanical (even remote) means will be used where possible. But the ground in the Falklands will in many cases make mechanical clearance impossible. Small areas will be cleared, and repeat visits over a number of years will be required before a couple of operations turn up zero finds. Only then will an area be declared clear, and even after that it's likely that warning signs and possibly fences will remain in place as it's entirely possible that mines will move to the surface that were not previously detected.

In 1944, Studland Bay in Dorset was the site of "Operation Smash", a run-up live fire exercise in the lead up to D-Day. Even now, over 70 years on, despite extensive clearance operations, and in recent years more responsive than proactive ops, live ammunition ranging from small arms up to air-dropped bombs via naval gunfire support munitions is still revealing itself through the shifting sands...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-367118...
https://www.facebook.com/NTStudlandBeach/videos/59...
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/83978039891789004...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mopg9iC2lU4
http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/8281741.500l...
https://www.virtual-swanage.co.uk/things-to-do/edu...

...it could yet be a long time before the Falkland Islands are truly free from mines laid during the war in 1982. Especially if the Argentinians used mines with mostly plastic bodies - they can be very difficult to detect and safely defeat. Not sure what mine technology was like back in 1982, but the British Army was still using the all-metal Mk7 Anti /Tank mine when our less savoury potential adversaries were developing nigh-on undetectable (by our then-current No.4C mine detectors) plastic mines.

Here's a photo...


Credit: IWM Prints - (you can buy a copy for £25) http://www.iwmprints.org.uk/image/743101/royal-nav...

Apart from the basic mistakes - the fact that it's WAY too big to be an anti-personnel mine, and he's not a Royal Marine, but a Royal Engineer - that also looks like a freshly dug hole, and it's far too shallow. But it gives you an idea of what you're dealing with. Now imagine that it's covered with dirt, possibly in soaking wet soil, and has been in the ground for 35 years, not 3½ months. The occupying forces mined a lot of open ground such as sports fields, to prevent use by helicopters in the assault phase. Quite a lot of mine clearance was carried out in the immediate follow-up to the war, but mainly in areas that needed to be made safe urgently to allow access by British Forces and the islanders...


Credit: IWM archives again... © Crown copyright. IWM (FKD 441) http://www.iwm.org.uk_www.iwm.org.uk/collections/s...

Again, apologies, OP, if I'm posting out of sequence. I was 11 when this was happening, and the war was a big part of why I joined the army just over five years later. It was VERY relevant for me because during basic training a good percentage of the training instructors were medal-wearing veterans of Op Corporate.