More Rolex questions. Sub & GMT...

More Rolex questions. Sub & GMT...

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DJMC

Original Poster:

3,431 posts

102 months

Saturday 22nd April 2017
quotequote all
confused

Been out and about today with my son looking at Sub and GMT.

Some questions raised...

1/ Pepsi GMT with faded red bezel insert. Late 90's. Excellent condition. Why does the red fade and does it make it more or less desirable on re-sale?

2/ A Rolex retailer (not official) told me a new non-ceramic sub bezel is £15-20 new. I asked what a genuine Rolex one would cost and he said "that IS a genuine one." Is he correct, or quoting his cost price? (We were talking about a Sub he'd just got in which he needed to re-furb, which has a slight insert scratch). Are non-ceramic GMT 1 & 2 inserts a similar price? Where's best to buy genuine inserts?

3/ Am I correct in saying a GMT 1 only uses the bezel for one extra time zone, whereas a GMT II has two extra zones, the bezel and GMT hand, the latter of which is settable?

4/ Two GMT 1's we tried had bezels which rotated both ways. The GMT II we tried only went anti-clockwise. Are these the correct motions for each type?

5/ One Sub had a short Oyster bracelet. Where's best to buy extra links and how do I know if they are genuine Rolex?

6/ If I trade my OP DJ bi-metal Jubilee with tapestry dial for a GMT II, will I regret it when fashions change again...???



Many thanks for any help!!

smile

Edited by DJMC on Saturday 22 April 18:34

UnclePat

508 posts

86 months

Saturday 22nd April 2017
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1/ it's normal. The pigment is painted onto aluminium only, and fades due to UV light (sunshine), accelerated in some cases by seawater. Desirability depends upon the eye of the beholder - Rolex geeks tend to value it, and nice insert examples can fetch a fair bit, with the varying paints & environmental conditions producing a kaleidoscope of vintage & unique examples that I happen to think are rather lovely. Non watch geeks (understandably) sometimes prefer their Rolex to look shiny & new, and so swap them out. They can be swapped at home (unlike the Ceramics) and are quite cheap, so many buy several to allow for different looks. But yes, keep the original - it will affect resale a bit if absent, or make it a little harder to sell - hard core fans tend to look for all the original parts, papers, boxes etc. (within reason).

2/ No idea re actual costs, but a new ceramic insert will cost many times more than an aluminium one - upwards of £150 I would have thought. Genuine inserts are only available from Rolex or someone with a Rolex parts account.

Unlike the aluminium inserts (where you can remove & replace the bezel and do changes as many times as you wish), the ceramics have a plastic underlay that is a one-time only use, to be replaced upon removal each time, so whilst you can do it yourself, unless you have the replacement plastic part, the bezel will not be fully secure. Ceramic inserts are tough but quite brittle - you wouldn't want to risk changing them yourself.

Bear in mind that it's the older Submariners & GMTs that use the aluminium inserts. The new models in each (phased in from circa 2005) use ceramic.

There are pros & cons to both, and they have a very different look.

I might be wrong, but you cannot 'retro fit' a ceramic insert to an older version.

3/ If you mean a Submariner when you talk about the GMT 1, the Sub bezel isn't a time zone display, it tracks elapsed diving time - up to 60 minutes - spent under water.

The GMT II Master bezel tracks a second time zone, and the fourth GMT hand tracks a third time zone. Both bezel & GMT are independently settable.

4/ Submariner bezels only rotate anti-clockwise - that is a safety measure, so that if the bezel gets knocked under water, it only increases the elapsed time display. The other way would be disastrous - better to come up for air/decompression too soon rather than too late.

GMT bezels aren't safety-critical, and so rotate both ways to make it easier to select the time difference of choice.

5/ Genuine Rolex links are available from Rolex or Authorised Dealers/Service Centres. Extra links cost a fortune - £75 each for a 904L steel link last time I checked. Maybe older GMT bracelet links are cheaper, but knowing how Watch Companies operate, I doubt it.

Best bet may be to ask the AD if they have any spares to sell you, or advertise on Forums. Most people just remove links and they stay in the box forever more.

6/ Who knows. Depends on individual tastes. Both the DJ and GMT have been around for 50+ years, so both are somewhat immune to fashion whims, and both will serve you well. Although, it's true that bi-metal isn't to everyone's tastes, and the DJ is a slightly older/more formal option than the sportier Sub or GMT. I like that DJ though, ideally you'd like to keep both & cover all bases.

Wilmslowboy

4,188 posts

205 months

Saturday 22nd April 2017
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I never noticed mine had faded so much until I saw it against a new one....(mine is a late 90s one as well)

I assumed it was due to wearing it in swimming pool / the sea.

Do you mind me asking what the price of the one in the retailer is ?







DJMC

Original Poster:

3,431 posts

102 months

Saturday 22nd April 2017
quotequote all
Thanks for the info.

My Q.3 was in relation to a GMT vs. GMTII, not Sub.

The Pepsi GMT late 90's is £5,300 but I think I could get it for £5,000. Under a 40x loupe it looks almost new.

I liked the black bezel GMTII I saw as it would be a good contrast to the DJ. Struggling to come to terms with both being around £8k new but my DJ is worth perhaps £3,250 against the GMTII's £5-6k for a similar year. Supply & demand no doubt!

Neither of us liked the bigger ceramic Sub or GMTIIc side by side with the older models.

traffman

2,263 posts

208 months

Sunday 23rd April 2017
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I sold a used Rolex insert recently for 80 pounds , it was slightly faded.

Seen original inserts on the Bay for between 18 and 350 pounds?

As mentioned before collectors love the faded inserts , it gives a history and provenance to the fact it was most likely worn in the sea , the salt water and sun seem to give the alloy inserts a faded look.

audidoody

8,595 posts

255 months

Monday 24th April 2017
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I took my 16710 GMTII into Rolex St James to replace the faded Coke bezel (12 years of sun and sea). Cost £45 for the new one and took 20 minutes start to finish. t would have been £75 if I had held onto the old one (which, in hindsight I should have).

Edited by audidoody on Monday 24th April 14:01

traffman

2,263 posts

208 months

Monday 24th April 2017
quotequote all
audidoody said:
I took my 16710 GMTII into Rolex St James to replace the faded Coke bezel (12 years of sun and sea). Cost £45 for the new one and took 20 minutes start to finish. t would have been £75 if I had held onto the old one (which, in hindsight I should have).

Edited by audidoody on Monday 24th April 14:01
75 quid! , well theres a faded Insert on Ebay for 500 dollars right now.


audidoody

8,595 posts

255 months

Tuesday 25th April 2017
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Before and after




DJMC

Original Poster:

3,431 posts

102 months

Tuesday 25th April 2017
quotequote all
audidoody said:
Before and after



Did you realise they put the wrong bezel insert on!!??

Yours was the lovely Serif font, the replacement is different. Later font I believe. No "hooks" to the ends of the numbers.

I'd be DEMANDING my original bezel back. What was wrong with it anyway? Looks fine.

Being practical, because they haven't replaced like for like (unless you asked them for a different font) they definitely have not satisfied the criteria for "replacement". It's like taking your BMW 5 series in for a new door mirror and finding a 3 series one attached when you pick it up.

If they have already disposed of your original bezel (or put it on eBay - see above post) they must either find you a correct replacement with the Serif font, or compensate you for the loss in value. This latter argument is tricky as they will perhaps say there is no difference in the cost of a new Serif bezel or the one they fitted.
Therefore the best bet is to claim breach of contract (unless you asked them for a different font) and base the lost value on your old, collectable, faded bezel.
Hopefully they still have it, can replace it FOC, and return your watch to it's original original condition. Far nicer imo, unless you insist on "perfection"?

At an auction house the other day one of the staff told me a selling customer had had his dial replaced at Rolex's insistence during a service. The auctioneer explained this would harm the watch's value. The customer managed to retrieve the original dial from Rolex and have it re-fitted. The re-"vintaged" watch sold at auction for £18,000 more than their top estimate had the new bezel been kept.

What are your thoughts?


Edited by DJMC on Tuesday 25th April 17:45

audidoody

8,595 posts

255 months

Wednesday 26th April 2017
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It's a genuine Rolex bezel insert backed up by a Rolex invoice. Not planning on selling it so it's not an issue for me.