RE: Manuals and DCTs disappearing from M cars

RE: Manuals and DCTs disappearing from M cars

Saturday 29th April 2017

Manuals and DCTs disappearing from M cars?

Senior M bod Peter Quintus suggests conventional autos will be the way forward



While many may dream of buying a new M car and sticking with the standard manual gearbox (where it's available, at least), the reality remains that the vast majority of buyers opt for the dual-clutch alternative. Given BMW manuals are far from the best, but its DCTs the very opposite, this makes quite a lot of sense. Especially when the cars often feel to be configured for two pedals.


Therefore the news that the manual only has a handful of years to live in BMW M cars, at least according to M's Vice President of sales and marketing Peter Quintus, shouldn't be all that surprising. What should come as more of a shock is his belief that the dual-clutch alternative will meet its demise at the same time as the manual.

"It's more a question of how long has the DCT got to go - how long will it last?" he said in an interview with Drive in Australia, citing the rapid recent improvements in conventional torque converter automatics. Where DCTs once held weight and shift speed advantages, the latest autos have significantly closed the gap: "Now, a lot of that shift-time advantage has disappeared as automatics get better and smarter."

Moreover there are automatics now with up to 10 speeds, bringing benefits for fuel economy and acceleration. As for the manual, apparently there is another issue beyond emissions and a lack of buyer demand - durability. According to Quintus, manuals will struggle to cope with the latest range of super torquey turbo engines; the limit is said to be about 450hp and 443lb ft, with durability issues beyond that.

In fact, such is the way manuals are going in M Division, Quintus believes cars below the M5 may now be going automatic-only. "I'm not even sure the next generation of M3 and M4 will have the option of a manual gearbox." There you have it then - get one (if you want one) while you still can!

 

 

[Source: Drive.au, via Motor1]

Author
Discussion

Thorburn

Original Poster:

2,398 posts

192 months

Tuesday 25th April 2017
quotequote all
And just like that I lose all interest in BMW M cars.

skylarking808

778 posts

85 months

Tuesday 25th April 2017
quotequote all
I would rather have a manual M3 than one with eight auto gears and 450+ BHP I cant use on the roads anyway.
Why do manufacturers insist on stupid amounts of horsepower increases that need even more tech that distances the driver to put the power down and keep it all on the road?

Auto drive drone cars are well on their way....

Cold

15,207 posts

89 months

Tuesday 25th April 2017
quotequote all
Didn't Autocar recently mention that the entire 3 Series range was to lose its manual box in the near future?

dunnoreally

951 posts

107 months

Tuesday 25th April 2017
quotequote all
Notable lack of comment on the M2...

Guvernator

13,104 posts

164 months

Tuesday 25th April 2017
quotequote all
And another one bites the dust. I'm seriously beginning to loose all interest in performance cars past a certain age now. Porsche realised that some people still want to drive manual cars and have somewhat gone back on their march to removing interaction from the driver but it looks like BMW M don't really care anymore. The last few M cars have been pretty disappointing anyway and citing efficiency targets and too much power for dropping manuals is everything that's wrong with modern performance cars.

Strangely enough the Americans who were traditionally the land of the automatic have realised that in sports\performance cars, a lot of people don't actually want all the techno-wizardry that removes them from the experience but the European manufactures seem to have got their priorities all wrong. Can I move to America please? They still seem to know how to make cars I'd actually want over there.

Nickbrapp

5,277 posts

129 months

Tuesday 25th April 2017
quotequote all
skylarking808 said:
I would rather have a manual M3 than one with eight auto gears and 450+ BHP I cant use on the roads anyway.
Why do manufacturers insist on stupid amounts of horsepower increases that need even more tech that distances the driver to put the power down and keep it all on the road?

Auto drive drone cars are well on their way....
Buy a Toyota gt86...



Oh wait.

Matt UK

17,649 posts

199 months

Tuesday 25th April 2017
quotequote all
Guvernator said:
And another one bites the dust. I'm seriously beginning to loose all interest in performance cars past a certain age now.
Same.

I think a boring tax efficient auto (or whatever fuel propulsion) for the daily grind and an older manual n/a play thing maintained to peak condition for the fun days is my path for the future.

Yes, I am a dinosaur (but don't forget, dinosaurs were frickin' awesome!!)

Thorburn

Original Poster:

2,398 posts

192 months

Tuesday 25th April 2017
quotequote all
Guvernator said:
Strangely enough the Americans who were traditionally the land of the automatic have realised that in sports\performance cars, a lot of people don't actually want all the techno-wizardry that removes them from the experience but the European manufactures seem to have got their priorities all wrong. Can I move to America please? They still seem to know how to make cars I'd actually want over there.
Weirdly the US got a manual version of the V10 M5 too, where as Europe didn't!

I think a RHD V10 M5 Touring would be right up there in my perfect garage line-up.

Matt UK

17,649 posts

199 months

Tuesday 25th April 2017
quotequote all
I guess the issue is that simply not enough paying punters of new cars want manual. It's simple really, although a shame for the minority.

Krikkit

26,500 posts

180 months

Tuesday 25th April 2017
quotequote all
skylarking808 said:
I would rather have a manual M3 than one with eight auto gears and 450+ BHP I cant use on the roads anyway.
Why do manufacturers insist on stupid amounts of horsepower increases that need even more tech that distances the driver to put the power down and keep it all on the road?

Auto drive drone cars are well on their way....
It's natural when each successive model is expected to be faster than the previous generation - if BMW brought the next M3 out and it wasn't quicker it would be seen as an abject failure (despite not being relevant).

If they're not prepared to keep the manual option I'd imagine they're going to see a significant drop of sales in the US as well, they're massively in favour of manual performance cars.

Alex C2

34 posts

135 months

Tuesday 25th April 2017
quotequote all
"According to Quintus, manuals will struggle to cope with the latest range of super torquey turbo engines; the limit is said to be about 450hp and 443lb ft, with durability issues beyond that"

Complete and utter rubbish without qualification - manual gearboxes have been coping with considerably more than that for 20+ years.

What he didn't say was within the determined space, weight and cost constraints they have planned. Take out 200kg of unnecessary NVH, pandering tech and sheer size / mass of your designs and give us a decent manual box.


Jimmy Recard

17,540 posts

178 months

Tuesday 25th April 2017
quotequote all
I presume he means that the manual gearboxes M currently sources can't handle more power and torque

SturdyHSV

10,083 posts

166 months

Tuesday 25th April 2017
quotequote all
So BMW can't engineer a reliable manual box that'll take more than 443lb ft of torque?

Ah well, at least the dumb backwards rednecks in America have managed to figure it out. Want 475lb ft through a manual? No problem, but would sir surely not prefer a manual with 650 lb ft going through it? Here, have a 5 year/100,000 mile warranty on it as well.

Guvernator

13,104 posts

164 months

Tuesday 25th April 2017
quotequote all
Matt UK said:
I guess the issue is that simply not enough paying punters of new cars want manual. It's simple really, although a shame for the minority.
Sure a lot of people who buy these cars just want to go as fast as possible with the minimum of effort but there has also been a big push by both manufacturers and the legislators to make auto's the most popular choice too. Auto's are more efficient which keeps the politicians happy and salesmen heavily push punters to tick that auto option citing resale value. I've had a salesmen get quite rude with me before when I was looking at M3's a while back and told him I wasn't interested in DCT.

They make manuals in America because people are more pushy over their and seem to know what they want in a car while we are led by marketing and salesmen BS.

siwhit

57 posts

180 months

Tuesday 25th April 2017
quotequote all
SturdyHSV said:
So BMW can't engineer a reliable manual box that'll take more than 443lb ft of torque?

Ah well, at least the dumb backwards rednecks in America have managed to figure it out. Want 475lb ft through a manual? No problem, but would sir surely not prefer a manual with 650 lb ft going through it? Here, have a 5 year/100,000 mile warranty on it as well.
If you go on Car Throttle, he is reported as saying “We looked at US gearboxes. We found they were heavy and the shift quality was awful” OUCH!

culpz

4,881 posts

111 months

Tuesday 25th April 2017
quotequote all
Regardless of how good they are, I'm sure that i read somewhere that the majority of cars on the roads in the UK are actually manual. Obviously, I'm fully aware that the UK market doesn't define as the majority of car sales, but surely that has to stand for something?

In regards to DCT's being taken away in favor of traditional automatics, that does actually make sense. The 8-speed ZF has proven itself to be almost as good as a dual-clutch, if not better, in certain aspects. Maybe BMW believe they can win people over with a much less complex system?

P.Griffin

377 posts

113 months

Tuesday 25th April 2017
quotequote all
Guvernator said:
And another one bites the dust. I'm seriously beginning to loose all interest in performance cars past a certain age now. Porsche realised that some people still want to drive manual cars and have somewhat gone back on their march to removing interaction from the driver but it looks like BMW M don't really care anymore. The last few M cars have been pretty disappointing anyway and citing efficiency targets and too much power for dropping manuals is everything that's wrong with modern performance cars..
100% agree. Let the idiots have their cake (and not be able to eat it) ...I'll take an old school N/A manual that I can drive just as quickly but have more fun in. The BHP, 0-60, Nurburgring arms race is ruining virtually every new performance car. It's so sad.

Jimmy Recard

17,540 posts

178 months

Tuesday 25th April 2017
quotequote all
siwhit said:
If you go on Car Throttle, he is reported as saying “We looked at US gearboxes. We found they were heavy and the shift quality was awful” OUCH!
I don't know if they are or not, but how do we know he's not just trying to make a dig at the competition and find an excuse?

xjay1337

15,966 posts

117 months

Tuesday 25th April 2017
quotequote all
ZF 8 Speed auto is great

Compares to a DSG yes.
However, on track, DSG still has an edge IMO.
So for the more extreme vehicles, DCT/DSG/Twin clutch is better.

But for your average sports barge then ZF 8 speed or similar is enough.

Dave Hedgehog

14,541 posts

203 months

Tuesday 25th April 2017
quotequote all
Thorburn said:
And just like that I lose all interest in BMW M cars.
i think many people already had when they moved over to 6 pots with fake engine noises through the speakers

doubly so with the lack luster reviews of the cars

such a shame after the epic V8s they made frown