Arguing for the sake of arguing ? What's it all about ?

Arguing for the sake of arguing ? What's it all about ?

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Slippydiff

Original Poster:

14,742 posts

222 months

Monday 22nd May 2017
quotequote all
Bear with me here please :

As an avid fan of Moto GP, and a subscriber to BT Sport, I have to listen to Keith Huewen : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Huewen on BT Sport.

Prior to Huewen joining the BT Sport team, I enjoyed listening to Toby Moody and Julian Ryder's commentary on Europsport for many years, a large part of the pleasure of listening to them was their friendly banter and mutual appreciation of each other's knowledge.

I make no secret of the fact that Huewen irritated me from the off, his accent has always grated, but what really irritated was his constant and consistent contrary manner with Julian Ryder. It appears that Julian Ryder either has broad shoulders or thick skin, or both, and rarely if ever rises to Huewens "bait". Though just occasionally Ryder will leave an embarrassing silence in their broadcasts when clearly stung by Huewen's comments.

Over time I've become fairly immune to Huewen's constant arguing/disagreeing with Julian Ryder, but early this year (or last) was intrigued to hear Neil Hodgson say (jokingly) something along the lines of "I don't know how you put up with Keith" when he and Julian Ryder were commentating without Huewen present in the commentary box.

After yesterday's French Moto GP race at Le Mans, Julian Ryder proffered some information in a manner that caused Huewen to reply (flippantly) with the following : Is that the Keith Huewen who ******** ****** ********* *****, or the Keith Huewen who argues for the sake of arguing ?"

The last comment practically made me fall of my chair as I'd always thought Huewen was ignorant of the fact he's so contrary with Julian Ryder, but clearly this isn't the case.

So, we've finally got there ........ and here's a barrage of questions regarding "being contrary for the sake of being contrary" or "arguing for the sake of arguing".

What makes individuals such as Huewen behave in this manner ? Is it a character trait per se ? Or just an individuals way of promoting healthy debate ? Do you have any friends, acquaintances, family, business or work colleagues who appear to be contrary just for the sake of it ?

If so, how do you deal with them ? and are they aware they're contrary ?

I have a mate who pretty much constantly disagrees with anything anyone says (if not to their face, then in private later) but said individual also seems to enjoy confrontation and appears to see his contrary/abrasive manner as "stimulating healthy debate", whilst seemingly unaware it's frequently utterly tedious, generally gets up peoples noses, and for me anyhow, is emotionally draining/wearing .......

Interestingly, the same mate recently returned from a holiday with with some friends and commented that the holiday had been exhausting because he had to watch his P's and Q's when chatting to ****** ****** because "he picks up on everything you say and then pulls you up on it and/or argues about it"....

As you can imagine I smiled to myself upon hearing this and thought No sh*t Sherlock, who'd have thought it ! ! ! .........

Having Googled "What's the best way to deal with contrary people ?" I noticed this comment and response which echoes my feelings on the subject :

"My friend does this in a somewhat playful and not particularly strident way, but I still find it annoying. Is there something I can say to help make him aware of this?"

If he is the kind of person for whom conversation = argument, you will have an uphill battle to change him. He's going to be bored with conversation that does not involve some level of disagreement. Most people who argue habitually are not unaware of what they are doing; they think it's better and more interesting than other kinds of conversation. I deal with this by realizing that it's emotionally neutral or even positive to them; it doesn't say anything bad about our relationship.

That said, I have resorted to spending less time with people who do it constantly and sort of reflexively, because it tires me out. And often, I feel like I'm making a big effort to follow arguments that they don't even care about that much. They'll collapse under serious challenge or say "I'm just playing devil's advocate." (The latter often seems to mean, "I am unapologetic about wasting your time and emotions.")

From this webpage : http://ask.metafilter.com/259875/Whats-the-best-wa...

Your thoughts and comments appreciated ! ! smile




Rude-boy

22,227 posts

232 months

Monday 22nd May 2017
quotequote all
I'm not arguing but don't you think that that is one long and heavy post for this time in the afternoon on a Monday?

xjay1337

15,966 posts

117 months

Monday 22nd May 2017
quotequote all
Too much to think about. And I love an argument.

I'm sure TooMany2Cvs will be along to multi-quote you up and dissect your post in but a moment.

To be honest I used to be pretty confrontational but nowadays I tend not to, usually in response to some ludicrous claim by a "car enthusiast" like a guy saying he has a 1.6 MX5 and it can do 160mph. ok mate cool, where as a few years ago I'd be like "oh really? tell me how.."

Hoofy

76,253 posts

281 months

Monday 22nd May 2017
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Rude-boy said:
I'm not arguing but don't you think that that is one long and heavy post for this time in the afternoon on a Monday?
Why do you come on PH if you're not willing to get involved in a good argument???

Usget

5,426 posts

210 months

deckster

9,630 posts

254 months

Monday 22nd May 2017
quotequote all
Hoofy said:
Why do you come on PH if you're not willing to get involved in a good argument???
That's not an argument.

Shakermaker

11,317 posts

99 months

Monday 22nd May 2017
quotequote all
I had a mate like that.

Had.

Everything had to be challenged - it was his way of attempting to show intellectual superiority over everyone else, by stimulating a discussion. But actually all he ever did, was wrap himself up so far that nothing he actually argued made any sense, and it just became tiresome.

iphonedyou

9,234 posts

156 months

Monday 22nd May 2017
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That sort of introduction requires a reasonable degree of certainty re the pay-off of wading through the post as a whole before committing to doing so.

Is there a TL;DR?

Rude-boy

22,227 posts

232 months

Monday 22nd May 2017
quotequote all
Hoofy said:
Rude-boy said:
I'm not arguing but don't you think that that is one long and heavy post for this time in the afternoon on a Monday?
Why do you come on PH if you're not willing to get involved in a good argument???
Debates, even heated ones, are great fun. Arguing is what you do before you walkout the door or they do.

Anyway my position is that that is far too long and involved a post to debate about on a Monday.

FredAstaire

2,336 posts

211 months

Monday 22nd May 2017
quotequote all
what are all the asterisks in aid of?

Vocal Minority

8,582 posts

151 months

Monday 22nd May 2017
quotequote all
Shakermaker said:
I had a mate like that.

Had.

Everything had to be challenged - it was his way of attempting to show intellectual superiority over everyone else, by stimulating a discussion. But actually all he ever did, was wrap himself up so far that nothing he actually argued made any sense, and it just became tiresome.
I think this is the root of it all.

If they aren't in the 'out' crowd - or disagreeing with prevailing wisdom, they don't feel intelligent.

I must confess I catch myself doing it sometimes - for which I am sorry

Edited by Vocal Minority on Monday 22 May 16:12

xjay1337

15,966 posts

117 months

Monday 22nd May 2017
quotequote all
Nanook said:
Yeah, there's some guy around here thinks his diesel Scirocco makes like, 300bhp or something.

Aye, ok mate...

wink
I actually lost 100bhp after doing the engine rebuild! I was gutted.

I'm happy to have a discussion about things, but I think what can be annoying is if you are fairly knowledgeable about a subject and then someone who has obviously no idea comes along and starts talking complete ste, and then gets upset when you point out they're wrong.

I get there can be right and wrong ways to tell someone they are wrong..... but people are sensitive nowadays.

Magic919

14,126 posts

200 months

Monday 22nd May 2017
quotequote all
Vocal Minority said:
I think this is the route of it all.
Or maybe the root.

Vocal Minority

8,582 posts

151 months

Monday 22nd May 2017
quotequote all
Quite right - spotted and edited

Roscco

276 posts

221 months

Monday 22nd May 2017
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I though Google had effectively killed a good argument.

Almost Anything can be found out with a glance at your phone.


Shakermaker

11,317 posts

99 months

Monday 22nd May 2017
quotequote all
Vocal Minority said:
Shakermaker said:
I had a mate like that.

Had.

Everything had to be challenged - it was his way of attempting to show intellectual superiority over everyone else, by stimulating a discussion. But actually all he ever did, was wrap himself up so far that nothing he actually argued made any sense, and it just became tiresome.
I think this is the root of it all.

If they aren't in the 'out' crowd - or disagreeing with prevailing wisdom, they don't feel intelligent.

I must confess I catch myself doing it sometimes - for which I am sorry

Edited by Vocal Minority on Monday 22 May 16:12
Its OK to do it sometimes, to have the understanding of the contrary point of view because maybe the person you are talking about might not, or to help them confirm the basis.

The current worst offenders in my life for this are my wife, her sister and their mother. Between the three of them they pretty much agree on everything but the arguments that is caused by them disagreeing with the agreement is ridiculous. However they only do it with themselves and not others for some reason.

Vocal Minority

8,582 posts

151 months

Monday 22nd May 2017
quotequote all
Shakermaker said:
However they only do it with themselves and not others for some reason.
In my experience, that is not an uncommon mother/daughter thing.... its an independence thing I think

Slippydiff

Original Poster:

14,742 posts

222 months

Monday 22nd May 2017
quotequote all
Rude-boy said:
I'm not arguing but don't you think that that is one long and heavy post for this time in the afternoon on a Monday?
No.


iphonedyou said:
That sort of introduction requires a reasonable degree of certainty re the pay-off of wading through the post as a whole before committing to doing so.

Is there a TL;DR?
Sorry it didn't meet with your approval.


FredAstaire said:
what are all the asterisks in aid of?
In the first instance, I couldn't remember Huewen's exact words, and in the second, I didn't want to use the individuals name ....

Roscco said:
I though Google had effectively killed a good argument.
?

Roscco said:
Almost Anything can be found out with a glance at your phone.
Indeed.

Duke of Kidderminster

733 posts

126 months

Monday 22nd May 2017
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I'm sorry, is this a five minute argument, or the full half hour?

Hoofy

76,253 posts

281 months

Monday 22nd May 2017
quotequote all
deckster said:
Hoofy said:
Why do you come on PH if you're not willing to get involved in a good argument???
That's not an argument.
Shurrup. I was busy.