A bit council (Vol 3)
Discussion
I still maintain that it is middle class conservatism, shame and, more recently, political correctness which has created the outcome.
The lower/working/under/whatever class didn't wake up one morning and say 'let's hijack the flag'. The middle classes abandoned it in their flight from national pride (national anything, in fact) and those who didn't run picked it up, shrugged, and felt that it precisely represented the local badge for the innate tribal tendencies held by all humans.
And describing the the English flag as an element of the Union flag comes across as a bizarre attempt to turn history on its head. The Union flag came last - the national flags were the true representations of the nations. As I said earlier^, the United Kingdom is simply the last vestige of the Empire.
The lower/working/under/whatever class didn't wake up one morning and say 'let's hijack the flag'. The middle classes abandoned it in their flight from national pride (national anything, in fact) and those who didn't run picked it up, shrugged, and felt that it precisely represented the local badge for the innate tribal tendencies held by all humans.
And describing the the English flag as an element of the Union flag comes across as a bizarre attempt to turn history on its head. The Union flag came last - the national flags were the true representations of the nations. As I said earlier^, the United Kingdom is simply the last vestige of the Empire.
V8mate said:
The lower/working/under/whatever class didn't wake up one morning and say 'let's hijack the flag'. The middle classes abandoned it in their flight from national pride (national anything, in fact) and those who didn't run picked it up, shrugged, and felt that it precisely represented the local badge for the innate tribal tendencies held by all humans.
Very fair point.
V8mate said:
I still maintain that it is middle class conservatism, shame and, more recently, political correctness which has created the outcome.
Not sure where you live, but around here (Berkshire) the middle classes are far from being "ashamed" of being English. The flag was ultimately co-opted by militant groups like EDL, FLA, et al. not because people are ashamed but because these groups initially purported themselves to be patriotic, publicising some of their milder ideas that average people might agree with whilst keeping the extremist ideas disguised. Ultimately the frog was boiled and by the time everyone could see these groups for what they are, it was too late and even though the majority of their initial support had been lost, the English flag had become their symbol.
Also... Political correctness used to be called "not being a c**t" when I was a lad.
As with most things that people don't understand the English flag is not just celebrated by larger swilling racist football louts ,much the same as those that don't understand that most who supported brexit are not anti immigrants and racists .
I have and will fly the flags , both the Union and the English , my ancestry is both English and Scottish, my mother even had a Scottish title . I was born in South East England and have lived most of my life in England with spells in the far east and Europe. I identify as English , then British.
Many foreign people that I meet cannot understand the lack of enthusiasm many English have for our own flag traditions and values .
Indeed many 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants in this country cannot understand the push by some for us to abandon our celebration of our national holidays and religious traditions .
I have and will fly the flags , both the Union and the English , my ancestry is both English and Scottish, my mother even had a Scottish title . I was born in South East England and have lived most of my life in England with spells in the far east and Europe. I identify as English , then British.
Many foreign people that I meet cannot understand the lack of enthusiasm many English have for our own flag traditions and values .
Indeed many 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants in this country cannot understand the push by some for us to abandon our celebration of our national holidays and religious traditions .
V8mate said:
And describing the the English flag as an element of the Union flag comes across as a bizarre attempt to turn history on its head. The Union flag came last - the national flags were the true representations of the nations. As I said earlier^, the United Kingdom is simply the last vestige of the Empire.
No attempt to turn history on its head at all. You misunderstand me.
The union flag has as part of its design the Scottish and English flags. They are therefore elements or if you prefer components of the flag.
captain_cynic said:
Not sure where you live, but around here (Berkshire) the middle classes are far from being "ashamed" of being English.
.
The problem here is that there are different types of middle class..
I would imagine most of my neighbours are middle class. Broadly left wing academic types. The Guardian reading suburban middle classes. The new neighbours are typical. Two VWs. One a new Golf estate with English Heritage National Trust and RSPB stickers in the window.
I was at a live broadcast of a Radio 4 programme at the weekend. Exclusively white suburban middle class and ashamed of everything from the fact Grandad killed some "Japs" in the war to the fact they bought a coffee from a big chain last week rather than from some fair trade artisan coffee shop.
They live in a terribly confused world. They would reel in horror at a boorish shaven headed lager swilling councilista swearing and slagging off immigrsnts, but they would also want to appear accepting and inclusive and not snobby and exclusive.
Then Katya from Poland comes round to do the cleaning. So much more reliable than Kayleigh from the council estate. So much more intelligent, more polite.
It must be hard work being them.
Wildcat45 said:
I was at a live broadcast of a Radio 4 programme at the weekend. Exclusively white suburban middle class and ashamed of everything from the fact Grandad killed some "Japs" in the war to the fact they bought a coffee from a big chain last week rather than from some fair trade artisan coffee shop..
These aren't middle class... These are Hipsters. Very few Brits would have fought in the Pacific theatre, it was mostly Australians and Indians who fought for the Commonwealth over there... Even then, none of my ancestors would have killed a nip, both sides of my family emigrated to Australia post-war.
So much council here.
Aftermarket Merc grille with big badge
Rubbish wheels
Shouting in the street
Weapons
Handbags
Red Vivaro
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5882665/Sh...
Aftermarket Merc grille with big badge
Rubbish wheels
Shouting in the street
Weapons
Handbags
Red Vivaro
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5882665/Sh...
captain_cynic said:
Wildcat45 said:
I was at a live broadcast of a Radio 4 programme at the weekend. Exclusively white suburban middle class and ashamed of everything from the fact Grandad killed some "Japs" in the war to the fact they bought a coffee from a big chain last week rather than from some fair trade artisan coffee shop..
These aren't middle class... These are Hipsters. Very few Brits would have fought in the Pacific theatre, it was mostly Australians and Indians who fought for the Commonwealth over there... Even then, none of my ancestors would have killed a nip, both sides of my family emigrated to Australia post-war.
captain_cynic said:
These aren't middle class... These are Hipsters.
Very few Brits would have fought in the Pacific theatre, it was mostly Australians and Indians who fought for the Commonwealth over there... Even then, none of my ancestors would have killed a nip, both sides of my family emigrated to Australia post-war.
30-65 year old plus GoreTex wearing teachers and lecturers. Not hipsters.Very few Brits would have fought in the Pacific theatre, it was mostly Australians and Indians who fought for the Commonwealth over there... Even then, none of my ancestors would have killed a nip, both sides of my family emigrated to Australia post-war.
As for very few Brits fighting in the Pacific. You're talking b
ks mate.On a lighter note. Australia. Council or not? :-)
Edited by Wildcat45 on Monday 25th June 15:19
Wildcat45 said:
30-65 year old plus GoreTex wearing teachers and lecturers. Not hipsters.
That is the very definition of hipster. Wildcat45 said:
As for very few Brits fighting in the Pacific. You're talking bks mate.
No, the majority of fighters over there were dominion, not British. ks mate.India = 2,000,000 combatants.
Australia = 600,000 combatants.
United Kingdom = 400,000 combatants (including all the British overseas territories such as Burma and Malaya). The majority of the actual British (I.E. from Britain) were in the navy so never would have been involved in a land battle.
For comparison, the British Army alone was 3.5 million. Probably more served in the navy with it's 1400 vessels.
Land battles in the Pacific were fought mainly between the Japanese and either Chinese or Indian forces. Even the US' contribution on land pales in comparison.
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