Flat Earthers- what to do with em
Discussion
mko9 said:
Eric Mc said:
mko9 said:
Satelites are only a couple hundred miles up, in low Earth orbit. (assuming you can orbit around a flat surface?)
As Zirconia has said, geostationary satellites orbit a lot higher than Low Earth Orbit. They are usually at a distance of around 25,000 miles from earth. And, of course, the moon orbits the earth at an average distance of around 240,000 miles.There is a reason we can work out where they are and show how they stay where they are and it involves a sphere and knowing your location on it and a bunch of other maths.
And introduces an interesting thing when you need to get a satellite signal to say Australia from the UK. Take the one located at 0.8 deg w (Intelsat 10-02). It will not work, Sydney cannot see that satellite. It is below the horizon for Sydney. Conversely we cannot see some that Sydney can see.
Upshot. Someone in Edinburgh, Norwich, London, Cardiff and Truro can all see the same satellite but the angles they need to set their kit will be different. That is observable.
Another interesting thing is you can only cover so much latitude north and south meaning the poles for example need inclined orbit satelites (wobbly sats) to reach up over the blind spot on this sphere. If it were a disk then all points would work.
Someone has done the leg work. There are other ways.
https://www.dishpointer.com
Chuck in a city, and use the aforementioned 0.8w satellite and see what the look angles say. They change as you move around the UK.
robinessex said:
They still exist on YouTube. Worth a laugh if you feel bored.
I actually managed to get into a mini debate with one recently. Well, I say debate, it was me asking for a flat earth map that accounted for the 24 hour daylight in the Antarctic summer, and them saying they didn't have to prove anything and I should do my own research.A Winner Is You said:
robinessex said:
They still exist on YouTube. Worth a laugh if you feel bored.
I actually managed to get into a mini debate with one recently. Well, I say debate, it was me asking for a flat earth map that accounted for the 24 hour daylight in the Antarctic summer, and them saying they didn't have to prove anything and I should do my own research.
A Winner Is You said:
robinessex said:
They still exist on YouTube. Worth a laugh if you feel bored.
I actually managed to get into a mini debate with one recently. Well, I say debate, it was me asking for a flat earth map that accounted for the 24 hour daylight in the Antarctic summer, and them saying they didn't have to prove anything and I should do my own research.Or something.
Jenny Tailor said:
A Winner Is You said:
robinessex said:
They still exist on YouTube. Worth a laugh if you feel bored.
I actually managed to get into a mini debate with one recently. Well, I say debate, it was me asking for a flat earth map that accounted for the 24 hour daylight in the Antarctic summer, and them saying they didn't have to prove anything and I should do my own research.
Nobody really believes the Earth is flat, they’re just attention seeking trolls. But most of the world’s population believe in far, far crazier s
t, and regularly kill each other over it.Our planet being a flat disc floating through space is a paragon of reason and intuition compared with any of that sky fairy gibberish.
MiseryStreak said:
Jenny Tailor said:
A Winner Is You said:
robinessex said:
They still exist on YouTube. Worth a laugh if you feel bored.
I actually managed to get into a mini debate with one recently. Well, I say debate, it was me asking for a flat earth map that accounted for the 24 hour daylight in the Antarctic summer, and them saying they didn't have to prove anything and I should do my own research.Nobody really believes the Earth is flat, they’re just attention seeking trolls. But most of the world’s population believe in far, far crazier s
t, and regularly kill each other over it.Our planet being a flat disc floating through space is a paragon of reason and intuition compared with any of that sky fairy gibberish.
Every enlightened person knows the world looks like this.
Jenny Tailor said:
MiseryStreak said:
Jenny Tailor said:
A Winner Is You said:
robinessex said:
They still exist on YouTube. Worth a laugh if you feel bored.
I actually managed to get into a mini debate with one recently. Well, I say debate, it was me asking for a flat earth map that accounted for the 24 hour daylight in the Antarctic summer, and them saying they didn't have to prove anything and I should do my own research.Nobody really believes the Earth is flat, they’re just attention seeking trolls. But most of the world’s population believe in far, far crazier s
t, and regularly kill each other over it.Our planet being a flat disc floating through space is a paragon of reason and intuition compared with any of that sky fairy gibberish.
Every enlightened person knows the world looks like this.
I love flat earth theory as a thought experiment/discussion point.
Because so many people will tell you the earth is round, and not flat, but when you ask them to prove it, they can't.
Obviously, this being PH, we have a higher standard of people here, but most people know the earth is round because they've been taught that the earth is round. They've been told. And that's not quite the same as knowing.
Look at Blackbird, a noted physicist claiming (and betting $10k) that a faster than wind, air powered car was false, that the results of experiments, and claims of its performance were not true.
After some debate, interrogation of the evidence and theory, admitted he was wrong.
Things like this can actually be useful talking points to get people actually thinking for themselves instead of just believing what they're been told, blindly.
Because so many people will tell you the earth is round, and not flat, but when you ask them to prove it, they can't.
Obviously, this being PH, we have a higher standard of people here, but most people know the earth is round because they've been taught that the earth is round. They've been told. And that's not quite the same as knowing.
Look at Blackbird, a noted physicist claiming (and betting $10k) that a faster than wind, air powered car was false, that the results of experiments, and claims of its performance were not true.
After some debate, interrogation of the evidence and theory, admitted he was wrong.
Things like this can actually be useful talking points to get people actually thinking for themselves instead of just believing what they're been told, blindly.
thewarlock said:
Things like this can actually be useful talking points to get people actually thinking for themselves instead of just believing what they're been told, blindly.
I dont think this is entirely true, we should be more aware of fake news and the like nowadays but critical thinking is not about challenging every fact you are told, we simply dont have time to do this about everything we see. You can prove a spherical earth quite easily as a member of joe public, but is it really necessary? Is it so important that we all go out today and prove this to ourselves? Or is it more important to fact check things like anti-vaxxers memes that are distributed and the like?
coldel said:
I dont think this is entirely true, we should be more aware of fake news and the like nowadays but critical thinking is not about challenging every fact you are told, we simply dont have time to do this about everything we see.
You can prove a spherical earth quite easily as a member of joe public, but is it really necessary? Is it so important that we all go out today and prove this to ourselves? Or is it more important to fact check things like anti-vaxxers memes that are distributed and the like?
I'm not quite sure how to respond to this.You can prove a spherical earth quite easily as a member of joe public, but is it really necessary? Is it so important that we all go out today and prove this to ourselves? Or is it more important to fact check things like anti-vaxxers memes that are distributed and the like?
On a thread about flat earthers, I've suggested that 'stupid' concepts like flat earth can be a useful pre-cursor to an informed discussion about science, the scientific method etc.
You've said that it's not necessary, and that we'd be better disproving anti-vax memes.
I have no idea why you've made that connection, or why the 2 are related. Sorry.
thewarlock said:
I'm not quite sure how to respond to this.
On a thread about flat earthers, I've suggested that 'stupid' concepts like flat earth can be a useful pre-cursor to an informed discussion about science, the scientific method etc.
You've said that it's not necessary, and that we'd be better disproving anti-vax memes.
I have no idea why you've made that connection, or why the 2 are related. Sorry.
You said that when people who believe the earth is round are asked to prove it they cant, this is false, you can, lots of different ways of doing this even for non scientists like you or me. On a thread about flat earthers, I've suggested that 'stupid' concepts like flat earth can be a useful pre-cursor to an informed discussion about science, the scientific method etc.
You've said that it's not necessary, and that we'd be better disproving anti-vax memes.
I have no idea why you've made that connection, or why the 2 are related. Sorry.
You said that its a good experiment in thinking, its not really, you have to be monumentally stupid to spend any significant time believing the world is flat. What I am saying is if you have time to critically assess things, do it on stuff that is worth while.
coldel said:
You said that when people who believe the earth is round are asked to prove it they cant, this is false, you can, lots of different ways of doing this even for non scientists like you or me.
You said that its a good experiment in thinking, its not really, you have to be monumentally stupid to spend any significant time believing the world is flat. What I am saying is if you have time to critically assess things, do it on stuff that is worth while.
I think you misunderstand.You said that its a good experiment in thinking, its not really, you have to be monumentally stupid to spend any significant time believing the world is flat. What I am saying is if you have time to critically assess things, do it on stuff that is worth while.
I'm not suggesting that it's not possible for the layman to prove or 'know' that the earth is round. Just that many can't. I'm sure you can, feel free to do so now, but many people only know the earth is round, because someone has told them. Just like many people know we don't float away, because of gravity, because someone told them. That's not knowledge though.
Your second part, 'monumentally stupid', you appear to have missed the point entirely. You're verging on throught police type behaviour there. We should not spend time thinking about problems like that to expand our understanding and critical thinking skills, because we should focus on what you deem worthwhile?
thewarlock said:
I think you misunderstand.
I'm not suggesting that it's not possible for the layman to prove or 'know' that the earth is round. Just that many can't. I'm sure you can, feel free to do so now, but many people only know the earth is round, because someone has told them. Just like many people know we don't float away, because of gravity, because someone told them. That's not knowledge though.
Your second part, 'monumentally stupid', you appear to have missed the point entirely. You're verging on throught police type behaviour there. We should not spend time thinking about problems like that to expand our understanding and critical thinking skills, because we should focus on what you deem worthwhile?
Nope not missed the point at all. We should all be 'thinking' like you said, but we should also be smart enough to avoid thinking too much about spurious nonsense like flat earth theory. At the end of the day the shape of the earth has no bearing on our day to day lives. However reacting to an anti-vax meme created by a russian cell circulating it on FB is definitely worth critical thinking.I'm not suggesting that it's not possible for the layman to prove or 'know' that the earth is round. Just that many can't. I'm sure you can, feel free to do so now, but many people only know the earth is round, because someone has told them. Just like many people know we don't float away, because of gravity, because someone told them. That's not knowledge though.
Your second part, 'monumentally stupid', you appear to have missed the point entirely. You're verging on throught police type behaviour there. We should not spend time thinking about problems like that to expand our understanding and critical thinking skills, because we should focus on what you deem worthwhile?
And yes, most people can prove the earth is round, if they look at the moon, eclipses, other planets, shadows, the orientation of the stars so on and so forth its all pretty easy. For someone to continue down the path of trying to prove flat earth once they have spent two mins thinking about that, they are monumentally stupid, if they use 'objective' critical thinking they should be dismissing it out of hand. No thought police involved at all.
Edited by coldel on Wednesday 29th September 10:40
thewarlock said:
I think you misunderstand.
I'm not suggesting that it's not possible for the layman to prove or 'know' that the earth is round. Just that many can't. I'm sure you can, feel free to do so now, but many people only know the earth is round, because someone has told them. Just like many people know we don't float away, because of gravity, because someone told them. That's not knowledge though.
Your second part, 'monumentally stupid', you appear to have missed the point entirely. You're verging on throught police type behaviour there. We should not spend time thinking about problems like that to expand our understanding and critical thinking skills, because we should focus on what you deem worthwhile?
It's more a question of believing that the earth is round and orbits the sun etc, rather than knowing. But that belief is based on a comprehensive model of (at least) the solar system which explains and predicts what we observe. For instance, the model can predict accurately when the next total solar eclipse will happen and where you will be able to see it.I'm not suggesting that it's not possible for the layman to prove or 'know' that the earth is round. Just that many can't. I'm sure you can, feel free to do so now, but many people only know the earth is round, because someone has told them. Just like many people know we don't float away, because of gravity, because someone told them. That's not knowledge though.
Your second part, 'monumentally stupid', you appear to have missed the point entirely. You're verging on throught police type behaviour there. We should not spend time thinking about problems like that to expand our understanding and critical thinking skills, because we should focus on what you deem worthwhile?
Flat earthers seem to believe that the earth is flat because when they look out to sea they think that the horizon looks straight. When it comes to explaining things like eclipses and even sunsets, they haven't model to explain what we can all observe with our own eyes. It also means that they have to say things that disprove the flat earth - like photos from space - are all faked.
Hoofy said:
Sorry, I'm going to sound thick here but how can I prove to someone without taking them up in a plane or to the sea that the earth is not flat? I live in SW London if that helps. Imagine a flatearther is in a pub with you. You step outside and show him what?
Ask him how an eclipse works, or why the stars orientation is different in southern hemisphere vs northern. Go up a tall building and show objects you can now see that you couldnt from ground level. Ask them to watch the live stream from ISS (ok you have to believe its up there I will give you that). All the planets you can observe through a telescope you can buy in Argos are spheres, why would Earth have properties that break every rule of physics and be flat?coldel said:
Nope not missed the point at all. We should all be 'thinking' like you said, but we should also be smart enough to avoid thinking too much about spurious nonsense like flat earth theory. At the end of the day the shape of the earth has no bearing on our day to day lives. However reacting to an anti-vax meme created by a russian cell circulating it on FB is definitely worth critical thinking.
And yes, most people can prove the earth is round, if they look at the moon, eclipses, other planets, shadows, the orientation of the stars so on and so forth its all pretty easy. For someone to continue down the path of trying to prove flat earth, they are monumentally stupid, once if they use objective critical thinking. No thought police involved at all.
Again, the point is not to think about the earth being flat. No-one is suggesting that we continue down the path of proving the earth is flat. And yes, most people can prove the earth is round, if they look at the moon, eclipses, other planets, shadows, the orientation of the stars so on and so forth its all pretty easy. For someone to continue down the path of trying to prove flat earth, they are monumentally stupid, once if they use objective critical thinking. No thought police involved at all.
As far as you're concerned, I assume, the sun is a huge ball of gas, millions of miles away. A flat earther might tell you it's much closer than that, they might even tell you it's not a sphere.
You'll tell them they're an idiot, because you know it's a ball of gas. And you may be right, they may be an idiot, but how do you know it's a giant ball of gas? You read it somewhere, or someone told you in school.
My point is that such seemingly ridiculous discussions can have the benefit of making people think more about what they really know, what they understand, and what they've been taught. I'm not saying we have to doubt everything, question everything, disbelieve everything unless we've seen it with our own eyes.
But it can be useful, even interesting, to think about such things. Maybe in future, people will be less trusting of russian memes on the internet, because they think for themselves a bit more, instead of just blindly trusting everything they read.
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