The eleven plus - getting into grammar school?
Discussion
Wow, things have certainly changed since my day! I was fortunate to be in a place with state grammar schools, and sat the 11+ a loooong time ago. it was a piece of piss for me- there was no additional tutoring or anything back then. I'd say that about 1/3 of our class passed and went to grammar school.
At the same time, I did a couple of private school entrance exams 'just in case', as the alternative comprehensive schools were appallingly bad. Failed miserably at one of these entrance exams (very good school), where the prep school kids were schooled totally to pass the exam. I didn't have a clue what I was supposed to be doing. Seems that this intensive tutoring requirement is now the case for the 11+.
I also think that the catchment area has expanded hugely too- no doubt to boost school performance/grades- our catchment area would have been within 4 miles or so of school (coupled with school buses etc. that I bet doesn't exist any more!). SO the grammar schools will become more 'elitist' but by the same measure, the other secondary schools will have a better standard too. There were some real dunces in our school, that had passed the 11+
At the same time, I did a couple of private school entrance exams 'just in case', as the alternative comprehensive schools were appallingly bad. Failed miserably at one of these entrance exams (very good school), where the prep school kids were schooled totally to pass the exam. I didn't have a clue what I was supposed to be doing. Seems that this intensive tutoring requirement is now the case for the 11+.
I also think that the catchment area has expanded hugely too- no doubt to boost school performance/grades- our catchment area would have been within 4 miles or so of school (coupled with school buses etc. that I bet doesn't exist any more!). SO the grammar schools will become more 'elitist' but by the same measure, the other secondary schools will have a better standard too. There were some real dunces in our school, that had passed the 11+
Whitean3 said:
Wow, things have certainly changed since my day! I was fortunate to be in a place with state grammar schools, and sat the 11+ a loooong time ago. it was a piece of piss for me- there was no additional tutoring or anything back then. I'd say that about 1/3 of our class passed and went to grammar school.
That is how the system used to be. Everyone had the chance to take the 11+ and as you say a good proportion went. But obviously there were far more grammar schools back then. When comprehensives came in the 11+ fell out of favour. According to Wiki there are only 164 11+ grammar schools in England now.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleven-plus
Living in Wales I don't think we have these; I would have done anything to go to a decent school, I was always top 5% if not top of my classes, instead I ended up at the local comp', had (and still have) some daft mates who nearly caused me to go down a very different path. Once you were above a "C" grade, no one really cared.
Unfortunately my family couldn't afford private school, nor to move house to where there were "better" schools, I do wish I would have taken the chance I had to go to a different (better comp') but I knew no one there.
If you have the chance to send your child to a grammar school, go for it
and I hope you and your families get the results you want!
Unfortunately my family couldn't afford private school, nor to move house to where there were "better" schools, I do wish I would have taken the chance I had to go to a different (better comp') but I knew no one there.
If you have the chance to send your child to a grammar school, go for it
and I hope you and your families get the results you want!We're looking at this for our eldest daughter, despite the fact she has only just started year 4.
Local schools are not great, so will try and get her into the nearest grammar school (a girls school).
She currently has a tutor once a week just for half an hour to keep her up to speed with her maths. Luckily the tutor is a family friend and an ex primary school teacher who is doing it for love and not money!
The downside is the distance from the grammar school - it will entail a 20 minute train journey and then a 10 minute school bus.
We've actually already started going to the open evenings and it's the grammar schools turn tomorrow night.....
Local schools are not great, so will try and get her into the nearest grammar school (a girls school).
She currently has a tutor once a week just for half an hour to keep her up to speed with her maths. Luckily the tutor is a family friend and an ex primary school teacher who is doing it for love and not money!
The downside is the distance from the grammar school - it will entail a 20 minute train journey and then a 10 minute school bus.
We've actually already started going to the open evenings and it's the grammar schools turn tomorrow night.....
For those of you that are putting your kids through it, I can’t impress on you the importance that even if your child gets the required mark it may not be the right school for them. We had the choice of four Grammars after she took the 11+, and two of them having got the wrong vibe we wouldn’t have sent my daughter to.
Don’t treat this as some sort of status symbol to boast about, it’s a long 5/7 years for your child.
Don’t treat this as some sort of status symbol to boast about, it’s a long 5/7 years for your child.
One of our friends has a really bright son. He came in the top 10 for each school entrance exam, and had his choice of grammar schools in the area.
He decided to go to the local secondary school because all of his friends were going there.
He's come top each year and is thriving.
Whatever happens, your child should know you love and support them.
He decided to go to the local secondary school because all of his friends were going there.
He's come top each year and is thriving.
Whatever happens, your child should know you love and support them.
My step-son sailed through 11+ with no tutoring; it was all very 'last-minute' but he did ok and went to a very good Grammar School and is now in his final year of University, doing very well. All good.
My step-daughter failed her 11+. She had tutoring, it was a stressful time and her teachers informed us that Grammar schooling was not in her best interests; they didn't feel she had the aptitude.
On her own accord, she had a second attempt at a Grammar for the 16+. She saw how much her older brother was enjoying his Grammar school and she hated her school's lack of ambition; mediocrity was everywhere and she had, by then, formed goals that would require a Ph.D and wanted to be in a more learning-focussed environment.
She passed with no tutoring - just downloading past papers and working on them. She went on to really enjoy her new school, finished in the Top 5 of her Class and then on to a very intensive Science degree for which she is currently in her 2nd year and assisting with a Ph.D student. She gets upset if she gets anything less than an A for anything and ensures she doesn't.
Her brother works a lot less to achieve similar Academic results, he's lucky, whereas she really has to want it and work for it: ultimately, I feel she will be the most rewarded for her effort as she takes nothing for granted and has specific, achievable goals.
My step-daughter failed her 11+. She had tutoring, it was a stressful time and her teachers informed us that Grammar schooling was not in her best interests; they didn't feel she had the aptitude.
On her own accord, she had a second attempt at a Grammar for the 16+. She saw how much her older brother was enjoying his Grammar school and she hated her school's lack of ambition; mediocrity was everywhere and she had, by then, formed goals that would require a Ph.D and wanted to be in a more learning-focussed environment.
She passed with no tutoring - just downloading past papers and working on them. She went on to really enjoy her new school, finished in the Top 5 of her Class and then on to a very intensive Science degree for which she is currently in her 2nd year and assisting with a Ph.D student. She gets upset if she gets anything less than an A for anything and ensures she doesn't.
Her brother works a lot less to achieve similar Academic results, he's lucky, whereas she really has to want it and work for it: ultimately, I feel she will be the most rewarded for her effort as she takes nothing for granted and has specific, achievable goals.
I have not been through it, though we did sit a couple of our kids for entrance exams into private schools at 11, which is similar.
The first one, we assumed the school would get her ready. We didn't do anything. About three weeks before the exam, we met with some friends who have a super bright kid the same age, who was sitting for their local Grammar. They were doing an 11+ past paper most days and had been for months. We panicked and bought books of past papers as soon as they left. Our kid passed her exam. Their kid got the top mark in the 11+ in their county.
The school used our daughter to help teach another girl who was doing the scholarship exam, as the potential scholar really didn't "get" the papers.
The next time, we got going earlier with the second. He passed his entrance exam too.
We didn't have any tutors.
I don't think it is so much teaching them anything new. It is getting them familiar with the types of questions they will encounter, which are a bit different - particularly the non-verbal reasoning ones
The first one, we assumed the school would get her ready. We didn't do anything. About three weeks before the exam, we met with some friends who have a super bright kid the same age, who was sitting for their local Grammar. They were doing an 11+ past paper most days and had been for months. We panicked and bought books of past papers as soon as they left. Our kid passed her exam. Their kid got the top mark in the 11+ in their county.
The school used our daughter to help teach another girl who was doing the scholarship exam, as the potential scholar really didn't "get" the papers.
The next time, we got going earlier with the second. He passed his entrance exam too.
We didn't have any tutors.
I don't think it is so much teaching them anything new. It is getting them familiar with the types of questions they will encounter, which are a bit different - particularly the non-verbal reasoning ones
AstonZagato said:
I have not been through it, though we did sit a couple of our kids for entrance exams into private schools at 11, which is similar.
The first one, we assumed the school would get her ready. We didn't do anything. About three weeks before the exam, we met with some friends who have a super bright kid the same age, who was sitting for their local Grammar. They were doing an 11+ past paper most days and had been for months. We panicked and bought books of past papers as soon as they left. Our kid passed her exam. Their kid got the top mark in the 11+ in their county.
The school used our daughter to help teach another girl who was doing the scholarship exam, as the potential scholar really didn't "get" the papers.
The next time, we got going earlier with the second. He passed his entrance exam too.
We didn't have any tutors.
I don't think it is so much teaching them anything new. It is getting them familiar with the types of questions they will encounter, which are a bit different - particularly the non-verbal reasoning ones
Generally the 11+ exam is considered to be far tougher than private school entrance exams.The first one, we assumed the school would get her ready. We didn't do anything. About three weeks before the exam, we met with some friends who have a super bright kid the same age, who was sitting for their local Grammar. They were doing an 11+ past paper most days and had been for months. We panicked and bought books of past papers as soon as they left. Our kid passed her exam. Their kid got the top mark in the 11+ in their county.
The school used our daughter to help teach another girl who was doing the scholarship exam, as the potential scholar really didn't "get" the papers.
The next time, we got going earlier with the second. He passed his entrance exam too.
We didn't have any tutors.
I don't think it is so much teaching them anything new. It is getting them familiar with the types of questions they will encounter, which are a bit different - particularly the non-verbal reasoning ones
Countdown said:
sjc said:
Generally the 11+ exam is considered to be far tougher than private school entrance exams.
Do you think they're easier, or is there just less competition to get into private schools (ergo the private schools being seen as "easier to pass"?My own two both took entrance exams for two private schools as a back up and both said how much easier both were.
Edited by sjc on Wednesday 17th October 19:41
Countdown said:
Do you think they're easier, or is there just less competition to get into private schools (ergo the private schools being seen as "easier to pass"?
Each school has its own exam, with some using the Common Entrance Exam. Private schools are selective, but academic ability is only one of the criteria.It means they can choose who they allow in.
Tutoring . Lots of it and practice papers . Tried to get my very bright younger son who has aspergers (the omg child genius type) into grammar but his scchool did everything they could to make him fail as the head teacher didnt believe in grammar schools.
I soent a year doing the extra homework they gave him and was at school most weeks pulling him out of detentions they gave him on the nights when he was due to see his tutor. They really tried hard to stop him.
Unfortunately the stress the school put him under to not do it got to him and he failed, i ended up feeling like as
t dad for making him do it .
Ended up going to the crap local school getting bullied so badly he left school at 13 and is now just starting GCSEs at college age 18 .
I soent a year doing the extra homework they gave him and was at school most weeks pulling him out of detentions they gave him on the nights when he was due to see his tutor. They really tried hard to stop him.
Unfortunately the stress the school put him under to not do it got to him and he failed, i ended up feeling like as
t dad for making him do it .Ended up going to the crap local school getting bullied so badly he left school at 13 and is now just starting GCSEs at college age 18 .
sjc said:
It’s simply not in a private school’s interest to make the entrance test too hard, for obvious reasons. From my own first hand experiences with my kids, and their friends etc (from a small private school,where the kids that didn’t make the 11+ grade all got in the private senior schools of choice without fail )I’m reasonably confident in making that assumption.
My own two both took entrance exams for two private schools as a back up and both said how much easier both were.
Demand and supply! If the private school in question is in sufficient demand they can make the academic requirements as hard as they like.My own two both took entrance exams for two private schools as a back up and both said how much easier both were.
Edited by sjc on Wednesday 17th October 19:41
Having put 3 children through the same private school I have seen changes. Each one of them faced the same academic challenge to pass the CEE and all passed (all have now left). More recently the school in question has expanded quite considerably. The academic threshold has been lowered to satiate the school's demand. I know second-hand that this has increased the demands on the teaching staff to deal with some of the more demanding kids with issues but parents with money.
Lord.Vader said:
Living in Wales I don't think we have these; I would have done anything to go to a decent school, I was always top 5% if not top of my classes, instead I ended up at the local comp', had (and still have) some daft mates who nearly caused me to go down a very different path. Once you were above a "C" grade, no one really cared.
Unfortunately my family couldn't afford private school, nor to move house to where there were "better" schools, I do wish I would have taken the chance I had to go to a different (better comp') but I knew no one there.
If you have the chance to send your child to a grammar school, go for it and I hope you and your families get the results you want!
So which is it? Would you have done anything to go to a decent school, or did you prefer to stay with your mates in the local comp?Unfortunately my family couldn't afford private school, nor to move house to where there were "better" schools, I do wish I would have taken the chance I had to go to a different (better comp') but I knew no one there.
If you have the chance to send your child to a grammar school, go for it
and I hope you and your families get the results you want!I ask because it's a key consideration in sending your kids to a grammar school, along with the fact that moving from top 5% of the class to middle or even bottom of the class is quite a culture shock, as is the burden of expectations put on you by teachers at grammar schools, especially at 11 years old.
People who didn't go to grammar school seem to think that they're just like comps but with better teachers, when the reality (at least in my experience) is very different.
caiss4 said:
sjc said:
It’s simply not in a private school’s interest to make the entrance test too hard, for obvious reasons. From my own first hand experiences with my kids, and their friends etc (from a small private school,where the kids that didn’t make the 11+ grade all got in the private senior schools of choice without fail )I’m reasonably confident in making that assumption.
My own two both took entrance exams for two private schools as a back up and both said how much easier both were.
Demand and supply! If the private school in question is in sufficient demand they can make the academic requirements as hard as they like.My own two both took entrance exams for two private schools as a back up and both said how much easier both were.
Edited by sjc on Wednesday 17th October 19:41
Having put 3 children through the same private school I have seen changes. Each one of them faced the same academic challenge to pass the CEE and all passed (all have now left). More recently the school in question has expanded quite considerably. The academic threshold has been lowered to satiate the school's demand. I know second-hand that this has increased the demands on the teaching staff to deal with some of the more demanding kids with issues but parents with money.
Going a bit off topic here though.
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